Difference between revisions of "Talk:V3 ScratchPad"

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=Comments on New Version=
 
=Comments on New Version=
  
−
Hmm... I guess you didn't like most of my suggestions...  Ah well. 
+
==Industry Bonus/Penalty for Planet Size==
  
−
Here's a few specifics to reconsider though:
+
Emtrys: Quick comment - Not all that keen on the industry bonus/penalties based on size. Any particular reason for these? (they do seem to have just appeared from nowhere.)
  
−
==Use of Nutrients?==
+
Geoff: Having big worlds be good for mining, and small worlds be good for industry would be a nice dichotomy... you need some of each to be optimal...  Makes sense too, as larger worlds probably lose their internal heat to space more slowly, so are more geologically active, meaning volcanoes and plate techtonics do funky stuff to the crust and expose more minerals...  Of course, mining asteroids is even better, since the surface area is sooo much larger, and there's no core for the heavy minearals to seep to (so you don't need techtonics and vulcanism to bring them back up)
  
−
The DD should probably mention that each population point needs 1 food / turn to not die
+
==Population Growth / Health Meter Level==
  
−
DREK: Yes it should.  In the population growth/food eating part of the document.
+
As you have it now, I think population grows too fast.  If the homeworld has max pop 30, starts with 22.5 and has Health of 60 (50 for optimal + 10 for homeworld), the pop goes like so:
  
−
==Break Even Point?==
+
Turn -> Pop<br/>
 +
1 -> 22.50<br/>
 +
2 -> 24.75<br/>
 +
3 -> 26.48<br/>
 +
4 -> 27.72<br/>
 +
5 -> 28.57<br/>
 +
6 -> 29.11<br/>
 +
7 -> 29.46<br/>
 +
8 -> 29.67<br/>
 +
9 -> 29.80<br/>
 +
10 -> 29.88<br/>
 +
11 -> 29.93<br/>
 +
12 -> 29.96<br/>
 +
13 -> 29.97<br/>
 +
14 -> 29.98<br/>
 +
15 -> 29.99<br/>
 +
16 -> 29.99<br/>
 +
17 -> 30.00<br/>
  
−
It'd be best, imo, if the "break even point" for different meters is consitent.  You have the health meter break-even at 25, but (presumably) the food meter break-even for a signle world is still at 10.  These should be at the same value, imo.
+
I think it should take more than ~10 turns to effectively max your population on the homeworld, or you should start with max population on the homeworld.   
  
−
DREK: That might be a good point. 25 seems like a good break-even point to me, since there's plenty of room above and below it.
+
My suggestion is to reduce the constant in the growth rate by half from (0.01) to (0.005).  At this rate, a new colony with 20 max pop and 50 health doubles in population in about 6 turns for the first 20 turns or so.
  
−
Geoff:
+
Alternatively, adjust down the health bonuses for optimal worlds.
  
−
==Growth==
+
==Food / Nutrient Distribution==
  
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Should probly throw in a formula...
+
===Proposal: Two Steps===
  
−
If 25 is the break-even point, I suggest something like this for the growth meter's effect:
+
*First pass when doling out food attempts to feed every pop point on every planet with 1 food (prioritized by production locally or big pop planets first...) If there's not enough food to feed everyone, one of these happens (pick?  probly not both):
 +
**The population is capped at the amount of food due to famine.
 +
**The health meter is reduced by: 40 * (planet unfed pop points) / (total pop of planet)
 +
*Second pass, the remaining food is dolled out in the same priority to planets again, to feed ever pop point with an additional point of food, up to 2 total.
 +
** The health meter is increased by: 20 * (planet pop points fed with 2 food) / (total pop of planet)
 +
*Any extra food left is wasted
  
−
If (Growth) > 25:<br/>
+
The constants 40 and 20 can be changed without objection from me... and should be if other things change that affect them.
−
(Pop Change) = (Pop) * ( (Planet Pop Limit) - (Pop) ) / (Planet Pop Limit) * ((Growth Meter) - 25) * (0.002)<br/>
+
−
If (Growth) = 25:<br/>
+
−
(Pop Change) = 0<br/>
+
−
If (Growth) < 25:<br/>
+
−
(Pop Change) = - (Pop) * ((Growth Meter) - 25) * (0.002)<br/>
+
  
−
For all:<br/>
+
I'd avoid reducing the health meter 1 point per population that's not fed, since the rate of growth / starvation is already dependent on population.
−
(New Pop) = Min( (Pop) + (Pop Change), (Max Pop), (Food Available) )
+
  
−
But again, I'd like to see standardized break-even points... at 10 if 1 pop uses 1 food for a standard race.
+
I don't like the current set of feeding statuses where you jump from one level to the next, with a huge difference on health, based on a small change in available food. My proposal takes better advantage of the smaller gradations of meters... and models what happens if there's enough food for some, but not all....
  
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DREK: Maybe 1 food feeds a population unit just fine, but you need 2 for normal growth.  0 food=Famine 1 food=Starving 2 food=Healthy
+
===Food Stockpiling===
  
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Not really sure how food should work yet.
+
DREK2:  I think food's going to be stockpiled.  Don't remember if there was a definite decision on that oor not.  You might want to repost your idea on forums, so that Aq and others might bump into it.
  
−
Geoff: I think two passes is sufficient:
+
Geoff: What difference does stockpiling food make?  The above was about how to determine growth bonus/penalty based on extra/insufficient food... whether it comes from stockpiles or what was just produced.  The "extra food wasted" wasn't the important part... I'm fine with it being stockpiled instead of wasted, if that's desired.
  
−
*First pass when doling out food attempts to feed every pop point on every planet with 1 food (prioritized by production locally or big pop planets first...) If there's not enough food to feed everyone, one of these happens (pick?  probly not both):
+
==Homeworld Special==
−
**The population is capped at the amount of food due to famine.
+
−
**The health meter is reduced by:
+
  
−
25 * (planet unfed pop points) / (total pop of planet)
+
Old Geoff:  I'd suggest homeworld reduce mining, as presumably your race took the low hanging fruit before spaceflight was discovered.  It also gives an additional impetus to colonize away or develop your home system, as you can spend your PP at home, but need the minerals to back it up.
  
−
*Second pass, the remaining food is dolled out in the same priority to planets again, to feed ever pop point with an additional point of food, up to 2 total.
+
DREK2: Bonuses have been reduced.  I was thinking planets only export when food is 2*population, so the HW would need +20.  What wrong with the homeworld rocking, since all players start off on equal footing?  Mid game tech advances should close the gap, except for Farming.
−
** The health meter is increased by:
+
  
−
25 * (planet pop points fed with 2 food) / (total pop of planet)
+
Geoff:  Homeworld will have focus bonuses and too, remember, so +20 is overkill.  You wanted to maintain the choice between focusing on farming to support growing colonies, and focusing on industry to pump out stuff at home, right?  With +20 farming (and a slew of others), you could do both.
  
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*Any extra food left is wasted
+
There's nothing wrong with the homeworld being great, but it shouldn't be far and away better than any other planet, or be able to produce more of everything than you need simultaneously.
  
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==Homeworld Special==
+
==Resource & Construction Meters Growth==
  
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My... this is one versatile special!  It currently gives:
+
NewDREK: 20 Construction/1+1 Farming=+10 to Farming, for example.  Pretty big jump for a new colony.
−
*+30 to Max Construction
+
−
*+30 to Max Farming
+
−
*+20 to Max Mining
+
−
*+20 to Max Industry
+
−
*+10 to Max Trade
+
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*+20 to Health
+
−
*(anything I missed?)
+
  
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If you get all these bonuses, and start with all current meters = max meters them full, then doesn't that remove any need to worry about what the focus of your homeworld is?  You'll have no problem feeding other planets while still pumping out industry. The other bonuses are not obviously problematic, but I wonder about the sheer magnitude. Any other planet will suck compared to the homeworld. I'd suggest bonuses on the scale of +5 or +10 at the most.
+
NewGeoff: New worlds don't have 20 construction though... they start with construction = 0, until it builds up.
  
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DREK:  Homeworld needs to rock in early game, otherwise the player won't be able to feed his nascent colonies.  Maybe the bonuses are too high.  You missed +10 to science :P.  Maybe it should just be +15 to all meters.
+
===Proposals & Spreadsheet Results 1===
  
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Geoff:  Does it really need to rock [i]that much[/i] early game?  New colonies start at population 1, homeworld at 20.  If you have 4 colonies at 2 pop each, you need 28 food, so you need a farming meter of 14.  (14 * 20 / 10 = 28).  If you start with balanced/farming, that's 10, so a bonus of +5 for homeworld would be sufficient... and that's ignoring any bonus for planet quality, which would probably make a homeworld bonus unnecessary (by the time you need more food, planets start producing their own).  Having a homeworld bonus anyway is fine, but +15 to all meters means you don't have any tradeoffs between production and food for expansions necessary... you can do it all.
+
For colony with construction fixed at 20, and (meter change) = (construction) / (10 + Current Meter)
  
 +
Turn____Meter___Change<br/>
 +
1_______0.00____2.00<br/>
 +
2_______2.00____1.67<br/>
 +
3_______3.67____1.46<br/>
 +
4_______5.13____1.32<br/>
 +
5_______6.45____1.22<br/>
 +
6_______7.67____1.13<br/>
 +
7_______8.80____1.06<br/>
 +
8_______9.86____1.01<br/>
 +
9_______10.87___0.96<br/>
 +
10______11.83___0.92<br/>
 +
11______12.74___0.88<br/>
 +
12______13.62___0.85<br/>
 +
13______14.47___0.82<br/>
 +
14______15.29___0.79<br/>
 +
15______16.08___0.77<br/>
 +
16______16.85___0.74<br/>
 +
17______17.59___0.72<br/>
 +
18______18.32___0.71<br/>
 +
19______19.02___0.69<br/>
 +
20______19.71___0.67<br/>
 +
21______20.38___0.66<br/>
 +
22______21.04___0.64<br/>
 +
23______21.69___0.63<br/>
 +
24______22.32___0.62<br/>
 +
25______22.94___0.61<br/>
  
−
==Construction Meter==
+
===Proposals & Spreadsheet Results 2===
  
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10% growth every turn is quite a lot. Is there any thought behind this number?
+
For (construction change) = 0.5 always, and (meter change) = (construction) / (10 + (meter value))
  
−
Is there any thought behind 30 as the default construction meter max?
+
Turn____Meter___Change__Const.<br/>
 +
1_______0.00____0.00____0.00<br/>
 +
2_______0.00____0.05____0.50<br/>
 +
3_______0.05____0.10____1.00<br/>
 +
4_______0.15____0.15____1.50<br/>
 +
5_______0.30____0.19____2.00<br/>
 +
6_______0.49____0.24____2.50<br/>
 +
7_______0.73____0.28____3.00<br/>
 +
8_______1.01____0.32____3.50<br/>
 +
9_______1.33____0.35____4.00<br/>
 +
10______1.68____0.39____4.50<br/>
 +
11______2.07____0.41____5.00<br/>
 +
12______2.48____0.44____5.50<br/>
 +
13______2.92____0.46____6.00<br/>
 +
14______3.39____0.49____6.50<br/>
 +
15______3.87____0.50____7.00<br/>
 +
16______4.38____0.52____7.50<br/>
 +
17______4.90____0.54____8.00<br/>
 +
18______5.43____0.55____8.50<br/>
 +
19______5.98____0.56____9.00<br/>
 +
20______6.55____0.57____9.50<br/>
 +
21______7.12____0.58____10.00<br/>
 +
22______7.71____0.59____10.50<br/>
 +
23______8.30____0.60____11.00<br/>
 +
24______8.90____0.61____11.50<br/>
 +
25______9.51____0.62____12.00<br/>
  
−
DREK: Not really.  It's only 10% growth to the construction meter, but perhaps it should be lower, and make the default 25 (so that it has parity with the breakeven point.)
+
Thus the construction max determines when you start to have falling rates of growth for larger meter levels...
  
−
Geoff: +1 / turn is plenty, imho.  A % of max growth is a hard cap on the turns to full capacity, and if that's ~10 turns, then it may as well not be growing at all...  25 breakeven is good.
+
===comments===
  
−
==Resource Meter Growth==
+
NewDREK:  A colony that's had it's infra blasted away but population inact should grow faster.
  
−
Old Geoff: Why linear growth at ~3 points / turn?  Wanted to avoid penalizing specialized focus with slow growth rate?
+
Geoff: So infrastructure (construction meter) is an absolute number, not a number / population like the other meters?  I had assumed the latter...  (otherwise why would current population make a difference to growth rate of anything / population ?
  
−
DREK: Just wanted to keep it simple, easy to understand.
+
NewDrek: Where are the bonuses and penalties from specials, tech, race picks applied, if not a meter?  Rather than inventing a new meter for Construction growth, I used max meter.
  
−
Old Geoff: If you're going to have a basically constant growth rate like this (after 10 turns), why not make the growth rate +1 / turn, and get rid of the construction meter? (It's not [i]essential[/i] to have it for general infrastructure purposes). 
+
Geoff: The bonuses can be applied to the max meter, but the growth rate could still be constant...?
  
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DREK: a) the construction meter can be reduced/raised through other factors, b) 10 turns is a long ass time in a turn-based game.
+
NewDrek: Hrm, thanks for paying attention to the numbers.  Sometimes it aint my strong suit.  40 turns seems like an eternity to me in a turn based game.  Max Consturction is used because I figured that a colony with Construction improving tech should build up it's general infra faster.
  
−
Geoff:  I dunno... compared to population growth from 1 pop, 10 turns is neglidible.  I'm still for +1 / turn or eliminating construction, as below.
+
40 turns is a long time... but I think it _should_ take a long time to get your construction/generic infrastructure fully maxed on a brand new colony...  It's a completely pristine world... no infrastructure at all... it shouldn't be as developed as a 200 turn old world after just 10 turns... (ignoring bonuses... but you get the idea).  20 is better, but still rather short.  Maybe 30 would be more to your liking?  (I still think 40 is good)
  
−
Old Geoff: At this point, I don't see what having it (the construction meter) really adds to the system.  The nascent colony special limiting max meters would work fine, and sum-of-resource meters works for determining which Infrastructure Label to use. Altnernatively, you could just use population.  Right now, the labels are rather shallow, and pretty much based only on the set of bonuses to max construction that a planet has (since it takes 10 turns or less to get to the max).
+
I don't have a great solution for how to incorporate tech increasing construction faster...  I think it might be sufficient to just increase the max construction, though, so improved tech increases the rate of growth of meters only...  It's not essential that the construction meter growth rate change, imho.
  
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==Environment Preference Effects==
 
  
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These are rather severe.  At this point, it's impossible to grow food on a terrible world or even an adequate world until you get a lot of tech or building bonuses to the max farming meter.  I suggest:
 
−
*+5 for subperb
 
−
*0 for optimal
 
−
*-5 for adequate
 
−
*-10 for terrible
 
  
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DREK:  Impossible to grow food on a terrible world? For a human, a terrible world would be Barren, Toxic, Inferno, etc.  It should be impossible to grow food on a complete hellhole without tech, imho.
+
Another issue we should consider is that if you get bonuses to max construction faster than the construction can reach the max (or effectively the max with a variable rate), the max doesn't really do anything meaningful. The max can't be too long, though, as above... (30 maybe? Presumably you'll get a construction bonus about every 30 turns, I'd guess?)
  
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Emrys: Agree with Drek on this one, and in fact would go even further by suggesting that the health ratings for poorer environments should be even lower than they are at the moment, such that if you stick humans on some toxic hellhole, the poor blighters die unless you work really hard at it...
+
==Focus Bonuses==
  
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Geoff:  Ok, I was thinking gaia = superb, terran = optimal, ocean & desert = adquate, tundra & swamp = terrible, others = impossible, but I see now that terrible includes anything below adequate, so nevermind.
+
(4) (Old faithful)<br/>
 +
*Primary Specialized -> +12
 +
*Primary Balanced -> +4
 +
*Secondary Spec. -> +6
 +
*Secondary Bal. -> +2
  
−
==Trade Bonus for Starlanes & Colocated Allies==
+
(5) (What you have now)<br/>
 +
*Primary Specialized -> +15
 +
*Primary Balanced -> +5
 +
*Secondary Spec. -> +5
 +
*Secondary Bal. -> +1
  
−
Could add a trade bonus for starlanes in a system connected to friendly populated systems.  For all planets you own in a system:
+
NewDrek: Jezus, you really mapped this stuff out.  The "what I have now" version looks fine to me.   Note that other than the homeworld special, "other bonuses" won't come into play until mid game. 
−
*+2 trade for each starlane connected in one hop to a system with a planet owned by your empire
+
−
*+3 trade for each starlane connected in one hop to a system with a planet owned by an allied empire (does not stack with +3)
+
−
*no bonus for connections to systems with planets owned by enemy empire (stacking optional... could cancel out +3 or +5 bonus for other races' planets in system)
+
  
−
Could also add a trade bonus for planets in systems with planets owned by allied races.  For all planets you own in system:
+
The feeling I was going for was a struggle to feed your colonies, until the player gets decent tech, but not so little that the homeworld can't support any colonies early game at default setting.  Balanced Primary (3), Secondary Farm (5), plus 10 (normal hw bonus) = 18, not even enough to keep the hw in good heath.  Balanced primary (3), Farm (5), plus 20 (current hw bonus) = 28, enough to keep 4 more population units in good health.
−
*+5 for each allied race that owns a planet in this system.
+
  
−
(more than one allied planet could stack, I guess... but I'd prefer not)
+
You are assuming that the homeworld will be able to switch to farming focus early game.  It wouldn't be wise:  how's the hw going to build colony ships to use all those extra Nutrients being produced?  (and we do want ot approximate moo2/moo3 early game to an extent: meaning the player starts off with a colony ship. How's that colony going to feed itself without Hw support before it's infra is built?)
  
−
DREK: I was actually thinking that certain buildings would give a bonus like this, which is why I included a "by count" parameter in ModifyPlanetMeter.
+
Alternative is to bump primary up to 25, primary balance up to 5.  Still, with the default foci for the hw, would need +15 to Farming from the HW special.  Those numbers would make it "too easy" for empires to support themselves without tech, imho.
  
−
Geoff: Righto. Probly better than giving it to everyone... more strategies for what to build and such.
+
Geoff:  So you're sold on the equal total bonus for balanced and specialized at the start?
  
−
==Infrastructure Label Ranges==
+
http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13132#13132
  
−
You've got some redundancies in the ranges... overlaps. Eg:
+
I rather liked the fact that balanced started off as better than a focus, so if you wanted to focus, you'd lose on total production, and that this would change over time...
−
*11-30: Developing World
+
−
*30-60: Established World
+
  
−
What is the label at 30? Same for 60 and 90.
+
If there are no other farming bonuses, the current rough magnitude of the balanced bonus (+3 or so) is fine.  I like the default of balanced/farming to support a few colonies that are much smaller than the home world. A bit more would bonus for balanced focus would be good, I think, to let the homeworld continue to grow a little, while supporting a few planets.
  
−
DREK: An error on my part.
+
I re-suggest my system of:  +12, +4, +6, +2.  This has the right rough scale, and a nicer spread of numbers than the huge difference between +25, +5, +5, +1 or (less so) +15, +3, +5, +1.  The latter is also ok (though not as nice, imho).
−
 
+
−
==Focus Bonuses==
+
−
 
+
−
Why the new values? I know you disliked secondary balanced focus all along, but making it that bad (+1) is kinda ... inbalanced...?  Might as well actually remove it if you're going to do that.  (How many buildings will be increasing secondary balanced focus bonuses anyway?)
+
  
 
=Old Stuff=
 
=Old Stuff=
Line 172: Line 221:
 
*mining/balanced -> 0.2 times need -> must import 0.8
 
*mining/balanced -> 0.2 times need -> must import 0.8
 
*mining/mining -> 0 times need -> must import 1.0
 
*mining/mining -> 0 times need -> must import 1.0
−
 
−
==Actors & Effects==
 
−
 
−
Effects are changes/modifications to game objects.  Actors are lists of Effects that function as a group. 
 
−
 
−
Actors are of particular "types" (or "classes").  When actors are created, their type determines the effects that they contain, and any variable details of how each effect functions.  Effects are also of particular types, and the details they need to specify how they function depend on their type.  The definition of an actor type contains a list of effect types and anys needed to specify how the effects will work.
 
−
 
−
All existing actors are iterated through several times while processing a turn.  On each iteration, a particular effect may or may not be fired, depending what time during the turn it is set to fire.  Effects are also given a chance to fire that is applied individually to each object in the effect's scope/restrictions.
 
−
 
−
===Definition of Actors===
 
−
 
−
Probably done in an XML file.  Programmer comment/tweaking encouraged.
 
−
 
−
Actor definition contains data such as name, duration, number and list of effects.
 
−
 
−
For Duration:
 
−
*-1 -> infinite duration -> never goes away on its own (may be destroyed by an effect in future versions.  Remains forever in v0.3)
 
−
*0 -> instant -> effects of actor fire immediately at time actor is created, but actor does not continue to exist for rest of turn (ie. if made in pre-movement phase, does not still exist or fire effects in post-movement.  if made in post-movement, does not exist in next turn's meter accumulation or pre-movement)
 
−
*1 or more -> limited lifetime -> disappears after # turns (at end of turn, or start... whichever)
 
−
 
−
===Definition of Effects===
 
−
 
−
Similar to Actor definitions.
 
−
 
−
Contains data such as the effect type, what phase of the turn processing in which to fire, chance to fire on each object in scope, details of what game objects are in scope, a specific target game object, an "affiliation" restriction on scope that works with target, and various other effect-type-specific details.
 
−
 
−
*Turn Phase:  Which effects phase of turn in which to fire effect.  See Effects System.  Meter Modifying effects ignore this parameter
 
−
*Effect Chance:  If an object meets all restrictions on the effect's scope, this is the chance that the effect will "fire" on that object
 
−
*Effect Target:  Works with Affiliation to determine which objects effect will "fire" on.
 
−
*Effect Scope:  Physical location restrictions on what objects will be "fired" on by effect
 
−
**Galaxy -> All objects... no restriction
 
−
**Empire -> All objects in a system with a planet owned by empire of target object
 
−
**Distance -> All objects within Scope Range parameter distance of target object
 
−
**StarLaneJumps -> All objects within Scope Range parameter starlane jumps of target object.  Partial starlane jumps count as a full jump (eg. if target is a ship on a starlane, not at a plant)
 
−
**System -> All objects in system of target object (later: or in fleet travelling with target ship)
 
−
**Personal -> Target Object Only
 
−
*Effect Scope Range:  How many "lightyears" or starlane jumps for respective scope restrictions
 
−
*Effect Affiliation:  Restricts list of objects effect will fire on based on the empire that owns them.
 
−
**TargetEmpireOnly -> objects owned by empire of target object only
 
−
**TargetAllies -> objects owned by empire of target object, or owned by ally of empire that owns target object (meaningless in v0.3)
 
−
**TargetEnemies -> objects owned by empires that are enemies of the empire that owns the target object
 
−
**All -> object owned by any empire (no restriction)
 
−
 
−
Note: If an effect is included in v0.3 that modifies a property of the empire, rather than one of its planets, then the scope parameter is ignored, and the affilitation parameter determines which empire(s) are affected, based on the empire that owns the target object.
 
−
 
−
===Effects System===
 
−
 
−
The processing of a game turn proceeds in this order:
 
−
 
−
*Start of Turn Processing - all meters set to 0
 
−
*Meter Accumulation Phase - All actors iterated through, any effect that modifies a meter is fired
 
−
*Upkeep Phase - Production/resource creation, pop growth/starvation, creation of new ships, etc.
 
−
*Pre-Movement Effect Phase - All Actors are iterated through.  Any effect that is marked for this phase in its definition is fired.  Any Actors summoned with duration 0 by an Actor effect fire their effects immediately.  Any Actors summomed with duration other than 0 do not fire now (but can fire in post-movement phase)
 
−
*Action Phase - Ship movement, battles, etc.
 
−
*Post-Movement Effect Phase - All Actors are iterated through, any effect that is marked for this phase in its definition is fired.  Actors created in the Pre-Movement Effect Phase are included in the iteration.  0 duration actors summoned fire effects immediately.  non-0 duration Actors created in this phase do not function this turn, but will function starting in the Meter-Accumulation Phase or Pre-Movement Phase of next turn.
 
−
*End of Turn Processing
 
−
 
−
===Specials, Techs, Buildings, Random Events===
 
−
 
−
These are all treated as actors.  When a building is constructed, an actor is created by the game.  This actor contains a list of effects that impliment the advertised function of the building.  Similarly, specials and techs have associated actors.
 
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The game also has a "Random Event Generator" actor that is always exists.  During the pre-movement and post-movement phases, various "SpawnActor" effects with low % chances to fire are iterated through and given chances to do so.  If the SpawnActor effect fires, an actor is created, which contains several other effects that impliment the function of the random event.  The actor may have 0 or non-zero duration, and fires immediately or in the next appropriate phase, as described in effecs system.
 
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===Effects for v0.3===
 
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Unless stated otherwise, an effect can be set to work in either the pre-movement or post-movement phase.
 
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*Modify Meter - Adds or subtracts from a planet's meter this turn.  Only functions during the meter accumulation phase.
 
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*Modify Stockpile - Adds or subtracts from one of empire(s) stockpiles.
 
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*Add Building to Planet - Adds a building to an empty building slot of a planet. 
 
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*Destroy Building - Removes all buildings of a certain type from the slots of a planet.
 
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*Set Planet Environment - Sets the planet environment.
 
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*Destroy Planet - Destoys Planet
 
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*Modify Planet Population -  Adds or subtracts from planet's population.
 
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*Set Research - Sets a tech a researched or not reserached.
 
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*Set Building Availability - Sets a building type as buildable or not buildable.
 
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*Set ShipeType Availability - Sets a ship class as buildable or not buildable.
 
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*SpawnActor - Creates a new actor, which begins to function as described in Effects System.
 

Latest revision as of 05:34, 16 July 2004

Comments on New Version

Industry Bonus/Penalty for Planet Size

Emtrys: Quick comment - Not all that keen on the industry bonus/penalties based on size. Any particular reason for these? (they do seem to have just appeared from nowhere.)

Geoff: Having big worlds be good for mining, and small worlds be good for industry would be a nice dichotomy... you need some of each to be optimal... Makes sense too, as larger worlds probably lose their internal heat to space more slowly, so are more geologically active, meaning volcanoes and plate techtonics do funky stuff to the crust and expose more minerals... Of course, mining asteroids is even better, since the surface area is sooo much larger, and there's no core for the heavy minearals to seep to (so you don't need techtonics and vulcanism to bring them back up)

Population Growth / Health Meter Level

As you have it now, I think population grows too fast. If the homeworld has max pop 30, starts with 22.5 and has Health of 60 (50 for optimal + 10 for homeworld), the pop goes like so:

Turn -> Pop
1 -> 22.50
2 -> 24.75
3 -> 26.48
4 -> 27.72
5 -> 28.57
6 -> 29.11
7 -> 29.46
8 -> 29.67
9 -> 29.80
10 -> 29.88
11 -> 29.93
12 -> 29.96
13 -> 29.97
14 -> 29.98
15 -> 29.99
16 -> 29.99
17 -> 30.00

I think it should take more than ~10 turns to effectively max your population on the homeworld, or you should start with max population on the homeworld.

My suggestion is to reduce the constant in the growth rate by half from (0.01) to (0.005). At this rate, a new colony with 20 max pop and 50 health doubles in population in about 6 turns for the first 20 turns or so.

Alternatively, adjust down the health bonuses for optimal worlds.

Food / Nutrient Distribution

Proposal: Two Steps

  • First pass when doling out food attempts to feed every pop point on every planet with 1 food (prioritized by production locally or big pop planets first...) If there's not enough food to feed everyone, one of these happens (pick? probly not both):
    • The population is capped at the amount of food due to famine.
    • The health meter is reduced by: 40 * (planet unfed pop points) / (total pop of planet)
  • Second pass, the remaining food is dolled out in the same priority to planets again, to feed ever pop point with an additional point of food, up to 2 total.
    • The health meter is increased by: 20 * (planet pop points fed with 2 food) / (total pop of planet)
  • Any extra food left is wasted

The constants 40 and 20 can be changed without objection from me... and should be if other things change that affect them.

I'd avoid reducing the health meter 1 point per population that's not fed, since the rate of growth / starvation is already dependent on population.

I don't like the current set of feeding statuses where you jump from one level to the next, with a huge difference on health, based on a small change in available food. My proposal takes better advantage of the smaller gradations of meters... and models what happens if there's enough food for some, but not all....

Food Stockpiling

DREK2: I think food's going to be stockpiled. Don't remember if there was a definite decision on that oor not. You might want to repost your idea on forums, so that Aq and others might bump into it.

Geoff: What difference does stockpiling food make? The above was about how to determine growth bonus/penalty based on extra/insufficient food... whether it comes from stockpiles or what was just produced. The "extra food wasted" wasn't the important part... I'm fine with it being stockpiled instead of wasted, if that's desired.

Homeworld Special

Old Geoff: I'd suggest homeworld reduce mining, as presumably your race took the low hanging fruit before spaceflight was discovered. It also gives an additional impetus to colonize away or develop your home system, as you can spend your PP at home, but need the minerals to back it up.

DREK2: Bonuses have been reduced. I was thinking planets only export when food is 2*population, so the HW would need +20. What wrong with the homeworld rocking, since all players start off on equal footing? Mid game tech advances should close the gap, except for Farming.

Geoff: Homeworld will have focus bonuses and too, remember, so +20 is overkill. You wanted to maintain the choice between focusing on farming to support growing colonies, and focusing on industry to pump out stuff at home, right? With +20 farming (and a slew of others), you could do both.

There's nothing wrong with the homeworld being great, but it shouldn't be far and away better than any other planet, or be able to produce more of everything than you need simultaneously.

Resource & Construction Meters Growth

NewDREK: 20 Construction/1+1 Farming=+10 to Farming, for example. Pretty big jump for a new colony.

NewGeoff: New worlds don't have 20 construction though... they start with construction = 0, until it builds up.

Proposals & Spreadsheet Results 1

For colony with construction fixed at 20, and (meter change) = (construction) / (10 + Current Meter)

Turn____Meter___Change
1_______0.00____2.00
2_______2.00____1.67
3_______3.67____1.46
4_______5.13____1.32
5_______6.45____1.22
6_______7.67____1.13
7_______8.80____1.06
8_______9.86____1.01
9_______10.87___0.96
10______11.83___0.92
11______12.74___0.88
12______13.62___0.85
13______14.47___0.82
14______15.29___0.79
15______16.08___0.77
16______16.85___0.74
17______17.59___0.72
18______18.32___0.71
19______19.02___0.69
20______19.71___0.67
21______20.38___0.66
22______21.04___0.64
23______21.69___0.63
24______22.32___0.62
25______22.94___0.61

Proposals & Spreadsheet Results 2

For (construction change) = 0.5 always, and (meter change) = (construction) / (10 + (meter value))

Turn____Meter___Change__Const.
1_______0.00____0.00____0.00
2_______0.00____0.05____0.50
3_______0.05____0.10____1.00
4_______0.15____0.15____1.50
5_______0.30____0.19____2.00
6_______0.49____0.24____2.50
7_______0.73____0.28____3.00
8_______1.01____0.32____3.50
9_______1.33____0.35____4.00
10______1.68____0.39____4.50
11______2.07____0.41____5.00
12______2.48____0.44____5.50
13______2.92____0.46____6.00
14______3.39____0.49____6.50
15______3.87____0.50____7.00
16______4.38____0.52____7.50
17______4.90____0.54____8.00
18______5.43____0.55____8.50
19______5.98____0.56____9.00
20______6.55____0.57____9.50
21______7.12____0.58____10.00
22______7.71____0.59____10.50
23______8.30____0.60____11.00
24______8.90____0.61____11.50
25______9.51____0.62____12.00

Thus the construction max determines when you start to have falling rates of growth for larger meter levels...

comments

NewDREK: A colony that's had it's infra blasted away but population inact should grow faster.

Geoff: So infrastructure (construction meter) is an absolute number, not a number / population like the other meters? I had assumed the latter... (otherwise why would current population make a difference to growth rate of anything / population ?

NewDrek: Where are the bonuses and penalties from specials, tech, race picks applied, if not a meter? Rather than inventing a new meter for Construction growth, I used max meter.

Geoff: The bonuses can be applied to the max meter, but the growth rate could still be constant...?

NewDrek: Hrm, thanks for paying attention to the numbers. Sometimes it aint my strong suit. 40 turns seems like an eternity to me in a turn based game. Max Consturction is used because I figured that a colony with Construction improving tech should build up it's general infra faster.

40 turns is a long time... but I think it _should_ take a long time to get your construction/generic infrastructure fully maxed on a brand new colony... It's a completely pristine world... no infrastructure at all... it shouldn't be as developed as a 200 turn old world after just 10 turns... (ignoring bonuses... but you get the idea). 20 is better, but still rather short. Maybe 30 would be more to your liking? (I still think 40 is good)

I don't have a great solution for how to incorporate tech increasing construction faster... I think it might be sufficient to just increase the max construction, though, so improved tech increases the rate of growth of meters only... It's not essential that the construction meter growth rate change, imho.


Another issue we should consider is that if you get bonuses to max construction faster than the construction can reach the max (or effectively the max with a variable rate), the max doesn't really do anything meaningful. The max can't be too long, though, as above... (30 maybe? Presumably you'll get a construction bonus about every 30 turns, I'd guess?)

Focus Bonuses

(4) (Old faithful)

  • Primary Specialized -> +12
  • Primary Balanced -> +4
  • Secondary Spec. -> +6
  • Secondary Bal. -> +2

(5) (What you have now)

  • Primary Specialized -> +15
  • Primary Balanced -> +5
  • Secondary Spec. -> +5
  • Secondary Bal. -> +1

NewDrek: Jezus, you really mapped this stuff out. The "what I have now" version looks fine to me. Note that other than the homeworld special, "other bonuses" won't come into play until mid game.

The feeling I was going for was a struggle to feed your colonies, until the player gets decent tech, but not so little that the homeworld can't support any colonies early game at default setting. Balanced Primary (3), Secondary Farm (5), plus 10 (normal hw bonus) = 18, not even enough to keep the hw in good heath. Balanced primary (3), Farm (5), plus 20 (current hw bonus) = 28, enough to keep 4 more population units in good health.

You are assuming that the homeworld will be able to switch to farming focus early game. It wouldn't be wise: how's the hw going to build colony ships to use all those extra Nutrients being produced? (and we do want ot approximate moo2/moo3 early game to an extent: meaning the player starts off with a colony ship. How's that colony going to feed itself without Hw support before it's infra is built?)

Alternative is to bump primary up to 25, primary balance up to 5. Still, with the default foci for the hw, would need +15 to Farming from the HW special. Those numbers would make it "too easy" for empires to support themselves without tech, imho.

Geoff: So you're sold on the equal total bonus for balanced and specialized at the start?

http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13132#13132

I rather liked the fact that balanced started off as better than a focus, so if you wanted to focus, you'd lose on total production, and that this would change over time...

If there are no other farming bonuses, the current rough magnitude of the balanced bonus (+3 or so) is fine. I like the default of balanced/farming to support a few colonies that are much smaller than the home world. A bit more would bonus for balanced focus would be good, I think, to let the homeworld continue to grow a little, while supporting a few planets.

I re-suggest my system of: +12, +4, +6, +2. This has the right rough scale, and a nicer spread of numbers than the huge difference between +25, +5, +5, +1 or (less so) +15, +3, +5, +1. The latter is also ok (though not as nice, imho).

Old Stuff

Focus Effects & General Meter Levels

Principles:

  • Food meter break even at (farming meter) = 10
  • At start of game, balanced primary is not enough to give food self-sufficiency
  • At start of game, balanced Primary and Farming Secondary is self-sufficient
  • At start of game, need lots of food to sustain population, so need large proportion of planets on farming focus. Later, farming gets better with tech, buildings, so proportion of farming planets can drop a bit (as all resource meter maxes get raised), and Balanced Primary with or without balanced secondary might eventually become enough to be self sufficient

Proposed:
(Resource meters have default / initial value of 0 each turn. Various meter modification effects add to them, including focus) At start of game (before techs, buildings change things):

  • Primary Specialized Focus gives + 12 to one resource meter
  • Primary Balanced Focus gives + 4 to all resource meters
  • Secondary Specialized Focus gives +6 to one resource meter
  • Secondary Balanced Focus gives +2 to all resource meters

Techs/buildings can independently add or subtract to the default value, or the effect of any of the 4 focuses on each meter. Eg: WonderFarms gives +5 to farming on farming specialed primary focus, +2 to farming on balanced prim. focus, +2 to spec. sec. focus, and +1 to bal. sec. focus (and +0 to other worlds... ie. some techs could give bonuses to all worlds, regardless of focus)

Farming Emergent Properties: primary/secondary focus, mining as "not farming" example focus

  • farming/farming -> 1.8 times need -> 0.8 more worlds' worth of food
  • farming/balanced -> 1.4 times need -> 0.4 more worlds
  • farming/mining -> 1.2 times need -> 0.2 more worlds
  • balanced/farming -> 1.0 times need -> break even point for world
  • balanced/balanced -> 0.8 times need -> must import 0.2
  • balanced/mining -> 0.4 times need -> must import 0.6
  • mining/farming -> 0.6 times need -> must import 0.4
  • mining/balanced -> 0.2 times need -> must import 0.8
  • mining/mining -> 0 times need -> must import 1.0
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