Talk:V3 ScratchPad

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Comments on New Version

Industry Bonus/Penalty for Planet Size

Emtrys: Quick comment - Not all that keen on the industry bonus/penalties based on size. Any particular reason for these? (they do seem to have just appeared from nowhere.)

Geoff: Having big worlds be good for mining, and small worlds be good for industry would be a nice dichotomy... you need some of each to be optimal... Makes sense too, as larger worlds probably lose their internal heat to space more slowly, so are more geologically active, meaning volcanoes and plate techtonics do funky stuff to the crust and expose more minerals... Of course, mining asteroids is even better, since the surface area is sooo much larger, and there's no core for the heavy minearals to seep to (so you don't need techtonics and vulcanism to bring them back up)

Population Growth / Health Meter Level

As you have it now, I think population grows too fast. If the homeworld has max pop 30, starts with 22.5 and has Health of 60 (50 for optimal + 10 for homeworld), the pop goes like so:

Turn -> Pop
1 -> 22.50
2 -> 24.75
3 -> 26.48
4 -> 27.72
5 -> 28.57
6 -> 29.11
7 -> 29.46
8 -> 29.67
9 -> 29.80
10 -> 29.88
11 -> 29.93
12 -> 29.96
13 -> 29.97
14 -> 29.98
15 -> 29.99
16 -> 29.99
17 -> 30.00

I think it should take more than ~10 turns to effectively max your population on the homeworld, or you should start with max population on the homeworld.

My suggestion is to reduce the constant in the growth rate by half from (0.01) to (0.005). At this rate, a new colony with 20 max pop and 50 health doubles in population in about 6 turns for the first 20 turns or so.

Alternatively, adjust down the health bonuses for optimal worlds.

Food / Nutrient Distribution

Proposal: Two Steps

  • First pass when doling out food attempts to feed every pop point on every planet with 1 food (prioritized by production locally or big pop planets first...) If there's not enough food to feed everyone, one of these happens (pick? probly not both):
    • The population is capped at the amount of food due to famine.
    • The health meter is reduced by: 40 * (planet unfed pop points) / (total pop of planet)
  • Second pass, the remaining food is dolled out in the same priority to planets again, to feed ever pop point with an additional point of food, up to 2 total.
    • The health meter is increased by: 20 * (planet pop points fed with 2 food) / (total pop of planet)
  • Any extra food left is wasted

The constants 40 and 20 can be changed without objection from me... and should be if other things change that affect them.

I'd avoid reducing the health meter 1 point per population that's not fed, since the rate of growth / starvation is already dependent on population.

I don't like the current set of feeding statuses where you jump from one level to the next, with a huge difference on health, based on a small change in available food. My proposal takes better advantage of the smaller gradations of meters... and models what happens if there's enough food for some, but not all....

Food Stockpiling

DREK2: I think food's going to be stockpiled. Don't remember if there was a definite decision on that oor not. You might want to repost your idea on forums, so that Aq and others might bump into it.

Geoff: What difference does stockpiling food make? The above was about how to determine growth bonus/penalty based on extra/insufficient food... whether it comes from stockpiles or what was just produced. The "extra food wasted" wasn't the important part... I'm fine with it being stockpiled instead of wasted, if that's desired.

Homeworld Special

Old Geoff: I'd suggest homeworld reduce mining, as presumably your race took the low hanging fruit before spaceflight was discovered. It also gives an additional impetus to colonize away or develop your home system, as you can spend your PP at home, but need the minerals to back it up.

DREK2: Bonuses have been reduced. I was thinking planets only export when food is 2*population, so the HW would need +20. What wrong with the homeworld rocking, since all players start off on equal footing? Mid game tech advances should close the gap, except for Farming.

Geoff: Homeworld will have focus bonuses and too, remember, so +20 is overkill. You wanted to maintain the choice between focusing on farming to support growing colonies, and focusing on industry to pump out stuff at home, right? With +20 farming (and a slew of others), you could do both.

There's nothing wrong with the homeworld being great, but it shouldn't be far and away better than any other planet, or be able to produce more of everything than you need simultaneously.

Resource & Construction Meters Growth

NewDREK: 20 Construction/1+1 Farming=+10 to Farming, for example. Pretty big jump for a new colony.

NewGeoff: New worlds don't have 20 construction though... they start with construction = 0, until it builds up.

Proposals & Spreadsheet Results 1

For colony with construction fixed at 20, and (meter change) = (construction) / (10 + Current Meter)

Turn____Meter___Change
1_______0.00____2.00
2_______2.00____1.67
3_______3.67____1.46
4_______5.13____1.32
5_______6.45____1.22
6_______7.67____1.13
7_______8.80____1.06
8_______9.86____1.01
9_______10.87___0.96
10______11.83___0.92
11______12.74___0.88
12______13.62___0.85
13______14.47___0.82
14______15.29___0.79
15______16.08___0.77
16______16.85___0.74
17______17.59___0.72
18______18.32___0.71
19______19.02___0.69
20______19.71___0.67
21______20.38___0.66
22______21.04___0.64
23______21.69___0.63
24______22.32___0.62
25______22.94___0.61

Proposals & Spreadsheet Results 2

For (construction change) = 0.5 always, and (meter change) = (construction) / (10 + (meter value))

Turn____Meter___Change__Const.
1_______0.00____0.00____0.00
2_______0.00____0.05____0.50
3_______0.05____0.10____1.00
4_______0.15____0.15____1.50
5_______0.30____0.19____2.00
6_______0.49____0.24____2.50
7_______0.73____0.28____3.00
8_______1.01____0.32____3.50
9_______1.33____0.35____4.00
10______1.68____0.39____4.50
11______2.07____0.41____5.00
12______2.48____0.44____5.50
13______2.92____0.46____6.00
14______3.39____0.49____6.50
15______3.87____0.50____7.00
16______4.38____0.52____7.50
17______4.90____0.54____8.00
18______5.43____0.55____8.50
19______5.98____0.56____9.00
20______6.55____0.57____9.50
21______7.12____0.58____10.00
22______7.71____0.59____10.50
23______8.30____0.60____11.00
24______8.90____0.61____11.50
25______9.51____0.62____12.00

Thus the construction max determines when you start to have falling rates of growth for larger meter levels...

comments

NewDREK: A colony that's had it's infra blasted away but population inact should grow faster.

Geoff: So infrastructure (construction meter) is an absolute number, not a number / population like the other meters? I had assumed the latter... (otherwise why would current population make a difference to growth rate of anything / population ?

NewDrek: Where are the bonuses and penalties from specials, tech, race picks applied, if not a meter? Rather than inventing a new meter for Construction growth, I used max meter.

Geoff: The bonuses can be applied to the max meter, but the growth rate could still be constant...?

NewDrek: Hrm, thanks for paying attention to the numbers. Sometimes it aint my strong suit. 40 turns seems like an eternity to me in a turn based game. Max Consturction is used because I figured that a colony with Construction improving tech should build up it's general infra faster.

40 turns is a long time... but I think it _should_ take a long time to get your construction/generic infrastructure fully maxed on a brand new colony... It's a completely pristine world... no infrastructure at all... it shouldn't be as developed as a 200 turn old world after just 10 turns... (ignoring bonuses... but you get the idea). 20 is better, but still rather short. Maybe 30 would be more to your liking? (I still think 40 is good)

I don't have a great solution for how to incorporate tech increasing construction faster... I think it might be sufficient to just increase the max construction, though, so improved tech increases the rate of growth of meters only... It's not essential that the construction meter growth rate change, imho.


Another issue we should consider is that if you get bonuses to max construction faster than the construction can reach the max (or effectively the max with a variable rate), the max doesn't really do anything meaningful. The max can't be too long, though, as above... (30 maybe? Presumably you'll get a construction bonus about every 30 turns, I'd guess?)

Focus Bonuses

(4) (Old faithful)

  • Primary Specialized -> +12
  • Primary Balanced -> +4
  • Secondary Spec. -> +6
  • Secondary Bal. -> +2

(5) (What you have now)

  • Primary Specialized -> +15
  • Primary Balanced -> +5
  • Secondary Spec. -> +5
  • Secondary Bal. -> +1

NewDrek: Jezus, you really mapped this stuff out. The "what I have now" version looks fine to me. Note that other than the homeworld special, "other bonuses" won't come into play until mid game.

The feeling I was going for was a struggle to feed your colonies, until the player gets decent tech, but not so little that the homeworld can't support any colonies early game at default setting. Balanced Primary (3), Secondary Farm (5), plus 10 (normal hw bonus) = 18, not even enough to keep the hw in good heath. Balanced primary (3), Farm (5), plus 20 (current hw bonus) = 28, enough to keep 4 more population units in good health.

You are assuming that the homeworld will be able to switch to farming focus early game. It wouldn't be wise: how's the hw going to build colony ships to use all those extra Nutrients being produced? (and we do want ot approximate moo2/moo3 early game to an extent: meaning the player starts off with a colony ship. How's that colony going to feed itself without Hw support before it's infra is built?)

Alternative is to bump primary up to 25, primary balance up to 5. Still, with the default foci for the hw, would need +15 to Farming from the HW special. Those numbers would make it "too easy" for empires to support themselves without tech, imho.

Geoff: So you're sold on the equal total bonus for balanced and specialized at the start?

http://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=13132#13132

I rather liked the fact that balanced started off as better than a focus, so if you wanted to focus, you'd lose on total production, and that this would change over time...

If there are no other farming bonuses, the current rough magnitude of the balanced bonus (+3 or so) is fine. I like the default of balanced/farming to support a few colonies that are much smaller than the home world. A bit more would bonus for balanced focus would be good, I think, to let the homeworld continue to grow a little, while supporting a few planets.

I re-suggest my system of: +12, +4, +6, +2. This has the right rough scale, and a nicer spread of numbers than the huge difference between +25, +5, +5, +1 or (less so) +15, +3, +5, +1. The latter is also ok (though not as nice, imho).

Old Stuff

Focus Effects & General Meter Levels

Principles:

  • Food meter break even at (farming meter) = 10
  • At start of game, balanced primary is not enough to give food self-sufficiency
  • At start of game, balanced Primary and Farming Secondary is self-sufficient
  • At start of game, need lots of food to sustain population, so need large proportion of planets on farming focus. Later, farming gets better with tech, buildings, so proportion of farming planets can drop a bit (as all resource meter maxes get raised), and Balanced Primary with or without balanced secondary might eventually become enough to be self sufficient

Proposed:
(Resource meters have default / initial value of 0 each turn. Various meter modification effects add to them, including focus) At start of game (before techs, buildings change things):

  • Primary Specialized Focus gives + 12 to one resource meter
  • Primary Balanced Focus gives + 4 to all resource meters
  • Secondary Specialized Focus gives +6 to one resource meter
  • Secondary Balanced Focus gives +2 to all resource meters

Techs/buildings can independently add or subtract to the default value, or the effect of any of the 4 focuses on each meter. Eg: WonderFarms gives +5 to farming on farming specialed primary focus, +2 to farming on balanced prim. focus, +2 to spec. sec. focus, and +1 to bal. sec. focus (and +0 to other worlds... ie. some techs could give bonuses to all worlds, regardless of focus)

Farming Emergent Properties: primary/secondary focus, mining as "not farming" example focus

  • farming/farming -> 1.8 times need -> 0.8 more worlds' worth of food
  • farming/balanced -> 1.4 times need -> 0.4 more worlds
  • farming/mining -> 1.2 times need -> 0.2 more worlds
  • balanced/farming -> 1.0 times need -> break even point for world
  • balanced/balanced -> 0.8 times need -> must import 0.2
  • balanced/mining -> 0.4 times need -> must import 0.6
  • mining/farming -> 0.6 times need -> must import 0.4
  • mining/balanced -> 0.2 times need -> must import 0.8
  • mining/mining -> 0 times need -> must import 1.0