Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

Topic threads for our monthly online voice chat meetings
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Vezzra
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Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#1 Post by Vezzra »

This is the topics thread for our next online voice chat meeting on Tuesday, August 29th 2023.

Please post suggestions for topics and discuss them here.

BlueAward
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#2 Post by BlueAward »

Could you clarify how stability is supposed to work in the annexation world? Mostly in context of things shifting into opinion.

Policy likes and dislikes on master branch factor into opinion rather than stability, and opinion doesn't affect stability, so maybe there were plans to tie stability into opinion?

Previously what policies you adopted or not, especially in light of Diversity or Conformance, were important part of balancing stability of your empire around critical points like, say, 10. Or trying to take advantage of Necessity (though that was nerfed a lot already). So yanking that part out, about balancing empire stability with mere fact of policy selection, changes meta but who knows maybe it was indeed intended to change the game around this (or maybe opinion supposed to impact stability but work in progress didn't come to that point yet)

Also at recent builds stability effects from buildings (and imported goods!) are out of whack, not sure if they count at all or not but certainly game is very very confused about displaying what species like or dislike in buildings, so maybe there's some work in progress to make it count for opinion rather than stabilty? But then, again, what about stability coming from buildings (and imports with capital markets)?

There was one issue on github opened around this policy thing, which looks like it was closed as intended feature, but then I opened similar issue and it's left open.. maybe just so people do not open those again or maybe you are reconsidering the likes/dilsikes v. stability.

Just really not sure what are the plans, is what I'm saying. If we're to report bugs or thoughts, would be good to know where this is headed

I like this new use of influence for annexation (apart from bug that currently you're not actually paying the costs, and perhaps unfinished part about opinion not affecting price), but not sure what to think about stability changes. It was non-factor pre v0.5, then seemingly a lot of work went into happiness changing into stability and being tied to plenty of stuff, I got used to it and like it, now not even sure how it is supposed to change

Ophiuchus
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Merge speed; lets go through some dangling PRs
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wobbly
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#4 Post by wobbly »

Would it be ok if I show up to this as well?

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Oberlus
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#5 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:09 am Would it be ok if I show up to this as well?
I've been there a couple of times and they where superwelcoming.

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Cjkjvfnby
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#6 Post by Cjkjvfnby »

There is a new feature for issue templates.
https://docs.github.com/en/communities/ ... ssue-forms

It's in beta, but I don't think that should be a problem, since we could revert to the old template quite fast in case of problems.

I'll try to prepare a life demo for the meeting. (it should be in the master)
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Vezzra
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#7 Post by Vezzra »

wobbly wrote: Thu Aug 17, 2023 6:09 am Would it be ok if I show up to this as well?
Yes, absolutely! It's a public meeting after all... ;)

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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Vezzra
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#9 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:41 pm https://meet.jit.si/ThoroughNovembersConvertPossibly

20:00 Berlin time, right?
Correct.

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Cjkjvfnby
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#10 Post by Cjkjvfnby »

I won't be able to attend the meeting today. Sorry for the late notice.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#11 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Jitsi now requires at least one person in a call to log in a a moderator. GitHub accounts can be used for this.

BlueAward isn't here, so we aren't sure what to discuss. Ophiucus would like to know roughly how opinion and stability and annexation is supposed to work. We've talked about this before. Some stuff affects stability and some affects opionin, and some can affect both. How it "should" be isn't clear.

Opinion currently affects just annexation cost. It should do more. Vezzra: low species opinion of an empire should have some important effects if that species is in or somehow connected to the empire. Could have something to do with making ships rebel or other trouble. This can have some dependence on those ships' species opinions of the involved empires. This is conceptually similar to annexation of one empire by another. Could be attached to policies. Could be a species trait or traits... some need a very low opinion to have a bad effect, and others react with less extreme opinions. Easier to introduce to some species rather than affecting all in a sudden change. Actionable stuff: add opinion->stability effects to some policies... perhaps ones related to voting or representation. Add "moody" trait to some species that also makes them react to their opinions as well.

Ophiucus: old PRs need some attention. Discussed them.

CJ's issue template looks pretty good.

Ophiucus: Make planet action buttons scriptable? That is, invasion and colonization could have additional conditions that determine when they can be done, similar to annexation.

wobbly: bombardment is rather broken.

Possibly a new record of 6 participants in the meeting.

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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#12 Post by Ophiuchus »

Notes from the meeting on opinion:

geoff: there are local things which affect stability
e.g. focus choice,
resources in the system

geoff: more global effects should rather affect opinion

geoff: Initial idea was that policies do not affect stability, only opinion. That did not work too well. It was recently reverted because the effect was not felt fast. Now some of it affects both.
If we keep that we would not necessarily need directly to connect stability with opinion.

Main effect of stability is rebellion and all the unlocking of other effects. Stability has probably enough effects.

Current main effect is annexation cost. There could be various other things like trade or cost of producing things.
some things might be unlocked on a certain opinion cost.
Probably it should do more than it does now.

vezzra: one effect we should have would be defecting of ships with very bad opinion.

geoff: one way to do that would be again that other empires could pay for defection (cost depending on )

vezzra: bad opinion of species in your empire should have tangible effects on itself, without other empires

wobbly or grummel: a defecting ship should not attack an empire of which it has a high opinion

geoff: my preference, lets tie this effects to policies; Additionally e.g. moody species are more affected by opinion to worry about.
So some policies would make species opinion more importing like voting/representation/government.

we still need to figure out what works best.

...
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

Notes on scriptable planet buttons from the meeting:

ophi: i would like more generic planet actions buttons (scriptable colonisation, bombardment, ...).

geoff: the effects are often tightly integrated so a generic thing would be probably too hard. But tweaking like e.g. bombardment should be fine.

there should be a bombardment orderBombard condition/effect.

e.g. colonisation;
like annexation condition on a species; the annexation cost calculation can also be

ship part would need extra condition; maybe bombard part has something?

wobbly: bombardment has this bug. that it only works first turn, not the second one.. cancel bombardment button was showing for ally bombarding the planet

geoff: basically the idea was that bombardment was an alternative to invasion
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LienRag
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#14 Post by LienRag »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 6:04 pm Ophiucus would like to know roughly how opinion and stability and annexation is supposed to work.
Long ago I made a post explaining how using Opinion as another meter with deterministic effects was lame, and at minimum it should set probabilistic triggers.
I'm a bit sad that nobody heeded my advice...

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting August 29th 2023

#15 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Aug 29, 2023 7:28 pmthere should be a bombardment orderBombard condition/effect.
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... r7.cpp#L47
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... .cpp#L9797
ship part would need extra condition; maybe bombard part has something?
There's a condition tracked for (all) ship parts, but it's named the "combat targets" currently...
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... Part.h#L78
It could be renamed to just "TargetCondition" and used for both weapon combat targetting and for bombard part targetting.
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/ ... .cpp#L1122

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