Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

Topic threads for our monthly online voice chat meetings
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6134
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#1 Post by Vezzra »

This is the topics thread for our next online voice chat meeting on Tuesday, June 27th 2023.

Please post suggestions for topics and discuss them here.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3544
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

- What to do with condeding empires? Conceding
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6134
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#3 Post by Vezzra »

FreeOrion Discord server?

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13619
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#4 Post by Geoff the Medio »

How to further extend empire species opinion mechanics:

-A planet focus to makes the planet's species like the empire more? Maybe costs IP to run? Depends on location factors, like having liked specials?

-Species traits like:
--GULLIBLE species that are extra affected by propaganda
--BELLIGERENT species like empires that use them in battles or have used them in battles
--EXPANSIONIST species like empires with lots of them on its colonies / lots of colonies with them populating them

-Policies
--Rework Propaganda to do something with opinions instead of generating influence?
--Add policy that increases the opinion of species controlling ships that are visible to an empire
--Add policy that increases the opinion of species on planets in empire's supply network
--Add policy that increases the opinion of species on empire's directly controlled planets

Currently by default, species opinions of empires doesn't directly affect planet stability, nor the other way. Maybe not linking them is reasonable? Avoids potentially problematic situations with low species opinions being to limiting. Instead, requiring actions by another empire to exploit a low species opinion of another empire is perhaps more balanced.

Currently there's a mix of effects that directly modify species opinions of empires, and effects that modify the target opinion. This is mostly guided by implementation ease at this point... Some stats are tracked, and some things exist for a brief time or some events occur just once.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3544
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

- ways to speed up development
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13619
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Vezzra wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:33 amFreeOrion Discord server?
FOSS alternative I just read about: https://revolt.chat/

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3544
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

- core starlanes
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13619
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#8 Post by Geoff the Medio »

-Jitsi does most/all of what we want for month voice chats. Nicely it doesn't require a login or account to be set up.

-Renaming propaganda and having something else have the influence generating effect sounds reasonable.
-Separating out ships from opinion modifying effects seems odd.
-Probably need more policy slots for this stuff...
-If low stability lowers opinion, low opinion can't also lower stability.
-Discussed stability mechanics related to influence debt, generation of rebel troops at low stability.
-Major reason to keep species opinions high currently is that it makes it harder for other empires to annex planets with that species.
-Grummel doesn't like stability of a planet influencing the opinion of a species in general...
-Vezzra thinks it's appealing (intuitive?) if opinion influences stability of planets. Stability influencing opinion would need a way to average over multiple planets... Would be easier not to have to calculate something like that.
-Having an opinion-stability spiral not OK by default, but if multiple policies are adopted and interact that way, then that would be OK.
-Maybe can have different interactions for different policies. ie. some would give bonuses for high and penalties for low opinions.

-Annexation costs for planets of other empires would depend on relative opinions of the species for the two empires.

-Vezzra thinks that if you conquer a planet of a species, it should dislike you. Conquering a planet to get a species shouldn't let you just use that species against its former empire of the species.
-Vezzra thinks that low species opinion of an empire should have effects or consequences on ships crewed by that species.
--Rebelling / traitor ships? Depending on opinions of multiple empires in a battle.

-How easy should it be to modify a species opinion?
--Influence projects acting over time?
--How simple are influence projects? Do they just give an opinion effect and have some influence cost? Do they have more involved effects and flavour like a policy?
--CJ likes projects that inolve just paying a cost over time and getting a benefit. Tradeoff between peacful annexation and paying an influence cost up front vs. conquering immediately and having an opinion penalty and then needing to pay over time to maintain their opinion.

-If losing ships lowers their opinion of your empire, deciding what empire to use for ships is trickier.
-Should there a difference between being the aggressor vs. the defender? (How to figure that out...)

-If species opinion of empire is low, could affect the upkeep costs of ships of that species, or the production costs / time?

-If multiple AIs need to play turns on a server, could have a single process at a time instead of keeping many AI processes running all the time, in order to reduce the AI memory consumption.
-Not clear what's using so much memory (~500 MB for one AI in a biggish galaxy). Looking in the debugger in MSVC wasn't much help.

-Vezzra thinks core starlane rendering useful, so are worth fixing instead of just removing them.

-Ophiuchus not here, so not really discussing his other points...

-o1leg has a static assert issue with CheckSum code invovling signed / unsigned chars on ARM.

-CI builds fail to download stuff like the NSIS installer dependency on GitHub builds sometimes.

User avatar
Geoff the Medio
Programming, Design, Admin
Posts: 13619
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:33 am
Location: Munich

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#9 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:07 pm -Not clear what's using so much memory (~500 MB for one AI in a biggish galaxy). Looking in the debugger in MSVC wasn't much help.
I added a bit of code to add up the memory consumption of UniverseObjects, including dynamically allocated stuff like names and meters. Currently it only handles the base object size and the additional size of ships, but it should give a rough order of magnitude. When loading a game about 450 turns in, the client deserialized 11444 objects and counted at least 3759 kB memory use for them. I'd guess double that is plausible, if all the other objects were fully counted... so maybe 8 MB or under 1 kB/object.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3544
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:07 pm -Vezzra thinks core starlane rendering useful, so are worth fixing instead of just removing them.
was there an idea what exactly should be the information shown?
Geoff the Medio wrote: Tue Jun 27, 2023 7:07 pm -Ophiuchus not here, so not really discussing his other points...
+1 ; i planned on joining but fell asleep when putting the kids to bed
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 6134
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#11 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:48 pmwas there an idea what exactly should be the information shown?
Back when this feature was introduced, it was supposed to show which systems were resource supply connected to each other, so you could see at a glance if all your colonies where in the same supply group, of if your empire was split up.

Back then resource supply and ship supply had different range IIRC, so making that distinction visible made sense. Is that still the case, or is supply range the same for resource supply and ship supply now?
i planned on joining but fell asleep when putting the kids to bed
The joys or parenthood... :mrgreen:

BlueAward
Juggernaut
Posts: 773
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#12 Post by BlueAward »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 4:11 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:48 pmwas there an idea what exactly should be the information shown?
Back when this feature was introduced, it was supposed to show which systems were resource supply connected to each other, so you could see at a glance if all your colonies where in the same supply group, of if your empire was split up.

Back then resource supply and ship supply had different range IIRC, so making that distinction visible made sense. Is that still the case, or is supply range the same for resource supply and ship supply now?
Oh wow yeah I think I remember that from 15 years ago or whatever, thinner supply lines further away. Well not the case anymore, it is one supply for everything

I still was finding this useful to see disconnection at glance and it was kinda relevant in MP games to see if two players are truly connected or not, but perhaps that is fixed now and you are connected as expected

I guess I did not notice the brokenness because I mostly assume things are connected and if they are not then it is rather evident through the thick lines than suddenly glow different color of unused PP rather than something else even if it is actually a non-100% guaranteed byproduct of disconnection.

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3544
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Topics for online voice chat meeting June 27th 2023

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 4:11 pm Back when this feature was introduced, it was supposed to show which systems were resource supply connected to each other, so you could see at a glance if all your colonies where in the same supply group, of if your empire was split up.
Ah. No, it is just one type of supply. Having two types sounds like harder to grasp, but would maybe help exploration.
BlueAward wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:30 pm I still was finding this useful to see disconnection at glance and it was kinda relevant in MP games to see if two players are truly connected or not, but perhaps that is fixed now and you are connected as expected
i think this is still very relevant besides QA - It should show the difference between peace and alliance.
BlueAward wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 5:30 pm I guess I did not notice the brokenness because I mostly assume things are connected and if they are not then it is rather evident through the thick lines than suddenly glow different color of unused PP rather than something else even if it is actually a non-100% guaranteed byproduct of disconnection.
yes, the different color glow to show that something is wrong (stockpile mark helps also with that) and actually which of your supply groups is disconnected is most important
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

Post Reply