Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

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BlueAward
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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#106 Post by BlueAward »

Hmm did wobbly just concede?

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#107 Post by wobbly »

I've been ready to concede for at least a couple of weeks. A 3 - on 1 fight where 1 of the 3 is around the same size as you gets pretty frustrating. I played on for a while just because, and also because as long as neither BA or o01eg decided to put the boot-in I could still have a bit of fun with mini skirmishing Oberlus. Apart from that I can't keep up with ship production on any flank. The only times I have enough to push Oberlus back a little are when I just leave too few ships on my flank with o01eg and count on him not bothering to smash me. Then Oberlus suicides all his ships, I have a couple of turns to reinforce my other borders (with insufficent ships) and then he has just as many ships as me again because he has no upkeep with all his ships destroyed and my upkeep has grown because I've had to pile up more ships on the other flanks.

Shrug. I'm happy enough with my play, I always had too many neighbours disease and Oberlus would of ended my run long ago if he hadn't mucked up and lost the Mu Ursh homeworld. I was actually expecting to lose early, right back when I discovered I had an extra neighbour.

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#108 Post by Oberlus »

So interesting!

I guess I've been making the wrong estimations the whole game. I pictured (based on what I could see, and what could be hints or tricks in some chats with wobbly and BA) the following:

- o01eg was tranquil. And behind monsters. And next to wobbly. Wasn't a threat.
- Endhu similar to o01eg, but next to BA. Not a threat.
- BA was fighting Endhu and wobbly, and quite far from me. A future threat.
- wobbly was fighting me with X fleet power and BA with 2X fleet power. And advancing towards a Mu Ursh also relatively close to me. A present threat.
- My policies and tech choices were not great, I was not going to win the game no matter what.

So I thought I will have fun fighting for the Mu Ursh, securing that area or dying in the try.

It didn't go well. I got the Mu Ursh but lost many ships. Kept having stability problems. And wobbly always managed to have more power than me, so I could not divert forces to grab George from Endhu or keep growing.
In the end, I lost the Mu Ursh HW and several Replicon worlds to wobbly. So I kept pumping ships to fight wobbly, and I kept lossing them to stupid maneuvers from me and clever ones from wobbly.

And all of a sudden (to my perception), wobbly is losing the battle against BA! That's a surprise to me.

All in all, I think I like more games with allowed diplomacy (regardless of alliances or not), because that allows me to adjust better to not only the in-game battle field, but also to gameplay satisfaction of the players. I mean, I would have liked to cut some slack to wobbly and go bother BA instead, so that end game is not about people wanting to concede because of 3on1, which feels so unfair to me.

That's aside from wobbly behaving like a Devouring Swarm xD

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#109 Post by BlueAward »

GG wobbly! When I finally rammed 100 ships into your 80 I did not expect such outcome just yet, but with you having conceded I suspect I am unstoppable. About 50 turns to transcendence or shorter if I now focus more on science. I will be hitting I think about 600 PP soon once black hole generator and thought network hit and should be over 300 RP too, and with Gysache there's now wiggle room where to put more focus

In a smaller galaxy I would probably quickly lose to you, was not giving myself lots of chances being Gysache next to Egassem. Haven't mapped the o01eg corner, but Oberlus seems far from you to me. Didn't you wedge yourself inadvertently between o01eg and Oberlus and decided not to budge?

I did not get good worlds around me but at least some adequate ones were around. More importantly I did get all three organic growth specials around and it was certainly a boon even though I had to work for two of those (on one hostile cloud shrouded planet)

Still, fight for Ugmors was paramount to me, I conceded the larger homeworld to you and it served well for you but winning the smaller one from you just in time not to have it emptied into the void and transplanting Ugmors closer to my home worked out for me even after I lost the smaller homeworld later on. But those Ugmors really did compliment Gysache rather well. I maybe wouldn't lose that part of galaxy to you but really had to defend from Endhu who was otherwise not bothered by Oberlus and built up sizeable military. And also I botched exit from racial purity, but it made sense to me at the time to take it and I still think it was okay to take (just not botch the exit, should have handled it better)

I think I had a 50-50 split of my ships and felt like I can lose on either side if I don't do something. It was stealth that helped greatly to keep you in check, ultimately you were better prepared for it so I rolled the dice and concentrated on some decisive stealth action against Endhu, ultimately successfully dismantling his capital and IRA world despite revealing myself by accident tad early. I could then consolidate fleet just in time to fight off your advance, though Endhu was still quite hurting me now that I didn't have most ships around on his side, but I figured I can take on the losses and recuperate later, keeping you in check being more important.

I suppose it was when Endhu has fallen that you felt it is ending for you as well now that I will be able to concentrate on you? Did you say something to o01eg that he started with next game thread?

It felt like it was a clutch and I can lose any time. But had fun certainly.

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#110 Post by Oberlus »

Ok, I'm conceding.

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#111 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:56 pm In a smaller galaxy I would probably quickly lose to you, was not giving myself lots of chances being Gysache next to Egassem. Haven't mapped the o01eg corner, but Oberlus seems far from you to me. Didn't you wedge yourself inadvertently between o01eg and Oberlus and decided not to budge?
The Gis Guf were just as close to the Mu Ursh as the Egassem colony (I was never guarding the Ourbools, its just no-one decided to take it). That choke point I was guarding was literally the gateway into my space and I never wedged myself in between, o01eg would actually be the closest capital to the Mu Ursh, he just never expanded outwards and Oberlus expanded into that space. The only point that could be considered as between the 2 (up until I took the Mu Ursh) is my front door.

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#112 Post by wobbly »

Map-wise I was at the inner ring edge of 9 o'clock, o01eg the outer edge of 10:30?, Oberlus around 1:30?, Endhu I never saw and BA around about 6 o'clock

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#113 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 1:08 pm Ok, I'm conceding.
Thank you for playing! I didn't get much interaction with you this game and even less so with o01eg, hope you had some fun with wobbly
wobbly wrote: Sun May 07, 2023 1:48 pm Maybe BlueAward after the game will have some comments on stealth.
I gather it can be quite effective mid game, though wobbly quite successfully defended from it I think, with some minimal losses (but it is true I mostly ran it as deterrent and rather focused on Endhu). Bio-adaptive ships with absorption field hold out nicely, potentially for long enough to have an impact, real sweet spot in the stealth meta. But if it were to become the main meta, then going lighthouses, continous scanning, and ultimately sensors puts that to rest. Granted, sensors especially may be expensive at the time to get, and not enough on its own... So it depends on what is your neighbour doing, right? So yes, sweet spot.

Otherwise early game I have a feeling there's too much other stuff to research and build, though I have not fully analysed that. You can have impact with those flux ships and maybe try something with symbiotic hull, I would think it's too much of a gamble. Could work in team though, like we had the first game I played, where wobbly was playing with flux ships - if one teamster can focus on that, they can run some early interference to throw some rocks into the gears of progress of the other side, and do not fret they are individually losing in other areas cause hopefully those will be covered by others.

Late game... well, once you hit omni scanner there is no stealth anymore, besides something like Gateway to the Void I suppose. It is true that the earlier built bioships may see second wind even after someone got sensors and continuous scanning if you get to sentient hull, but it's far off on its own, and reactive omni scanner may not give you enough time to do anything with it anyway.

Using stealth in ships is fiddly, having to pay attention to fleet stance, especially in context of default stance when splitting fleet (something I messed up a bit), fleet size and the star system impact (bonus/malus). If you get random disconnects and lose track of what orders have been made, it may really poop on your strategy if you are not super cautious. And even if you're cautious successful defender can strand your ships and your gamble didn't pay. So there's that, too. Flux ships from what I saw in previous game are even fiddlier with the offset of effect

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#114 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:56 pm I suppose it was when Endhu has fallen that you felt it is ending for you as well now that I will be able to concentrate on you? Did you say something to o01eg that he started with next game thread?
Nah I hadn't said anything. It was around when Oberlus's Mu Ursh fell actually. o01eg choose that moment to drop a large fleet of troops onto the board and I had to scramble my ships back in to defense. I'd been keeping a small force at the Gis Gufs planet to discourage him from trying anything, but every time Oberlus piled up more ships on my border I had to pull them away to hold him off. Then I'd replace them and then they'd get pulled away again. So Endhu falling was bad news for me, but hey you try till its certain, then I finally got a bit of a break where if I could maybe have some chances if I consolidated the Mu Ursh.... then straight away I was being hit from another side. Basically when it was clear it was just going to be a 3 on 1 fight where I couldn't really do anything.

So I played it out for a bit, and o01eg parked fleets near my border and kept growing them, you did the same, Oberlus kept spamming ships at me and crashing them into my fleets. It was a similar situation with o01egs fleet as yours. Neither of you had to risk them in an actual attack, they could just sit there menacing, and growing faster then mine. Couldn't break anywhere and remove 1 enemy, spending enough resources on any enemy just meant I'd collapse on another flank. Just paralysis where I couldn't move forward and each turn the situation grew a little worse. Which would of actually been fine if holding out for longer mattered to the outcome, but every remaining player was fighting me, and only 1 of them was in a position to win if I fell. Oberlus was already way too far behind in research, even if he won my space. o01eg maybe had the research progress, but he was also the smallest empire, and I had the impression he wasn't really trying that hard to compete to win anyway.

The colonies I took off Oberlus were also more a burden then a gain (Mu Ursh excepted). I was right at a happy point influence-wise where I had just the right number of colonies to make a small gain in influence. I was only taking them to try and cut his production down and try and gain a space buffer. Every one I took was a drain of PP for troops, an evac and then a temporary rise in the influence cost of all my other colonies.

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#115 Post by o01eg »

It quite unexpected turn of events.
BlueAward wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:56 pm GG wobbly! When I finally rammed 100 ships into your 80 I did not expect such outcome just yet, but with you having conceded I suspect I am unstoppable. About 50 turns to transcendence or shorter if I now focus more on science. I will be hitting I think about 600 PP soon once black hole generator and thought network hit and should be over 300 RP too, and with Gysache there's now wiggle room where to put more focus
I don't even have 150 RP now and not sure if I could get much more while taking over wobbly's legacy.
BlueAward wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:56 pm I suppose it was when Endhu has fallen that you felt it is ending for you as well now that I will be able to concentrate on you? Did you say something to o01eg that he started with next game thread?
No, I barely interacted about this game with anyone. I've just seen wobbly success over Oberlus empire and expected I'll be his next victim and then game will come to end.
wobbly wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 2:34 pm o01eg maybe had the research progress, but he was also the smallest empire, and I had the impression he wasn't really trying that hard to compete to win anyway.
I instead expected you to attack me soon so even started to pile up base fluxes as additional planetary defence.
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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#116 Post by Oberlus »

Looks like the only borders that didn't get more and more ship-piling through out the game was Endhu-Oberlus because neither of us pilled up any ships from start.
I rest reassured that no-diplomacy (no info-passing, no pacts) makes the game even more paranoid (but less stressful).

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#117 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 1:58 pm I gather it can be quite effective mid game, though wobbly quite successfully defended from it I think, with some minimal losses (but it is true I mostly ran it as deterrent and rather focused on Endhu). Bio-adaptive ships with absorption field hold out nicely, potentially for long enough to have an impact, real sweet spot in the stealth meta.
The red ships themselves (even without stealth) are pretty strong. I hadn't noticed before that you can get them sort of early(-ish). Maybe not on my normal research path (for a start I rarely build the green ships). I also hadn't noticed before that you can research the later stealth parts without the earlier stealth parts. Not that it would make a huge difference to the final cost. Also they have pretty good base stealth even without the part.

Just looking into the pre-reqs for reds, its probably because terraforming isn't on my radar as a tech choice. I used some of the other rare organics a couple of games ago (and o01eg had them this game) and found them to be quite good. There seems to be a bunch of decent hulls that don't see much use. Though maybe its a much to do with "design simplicity" policy. Before that existed it was a bigger deal to get to big ships quicker, and the mid-sized organic hulls (after the symbiots/statics) were maybe too late to compete with self-gravs.

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#118 Post by BlueAward »

wobbly wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 4:39 pm
BlueAward wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 1:58 pm I gather it can be quite effective mid game, though wobbly quite successfully defended from it I think, with some minimal losses (but it is true I mostly ran it as deterrent and rather focused on Endhu). Bio-adaptive ships with absorption field hold out nicely, potentially for long enough to have an impact, real sweet spot in the stealth meta.
The red ships themselves (even without stealth) are pretty strong. I hadn't noticed before that you can get them sort of early(-ish). Maybe not on my normal research path (for a start I rarely build the green ships). I also hadn't noticed before that you can research the later stealth parts without the earlier stealth parts. Not that it would make a huge difference to the final cost. Also they have pretty good base stealth even without the part.

Just looking into the pre-reqs for reds, its probably because terraforming isn't on my radar as a tech choice. I used some of the other rare organics a couple of games ago (and o01eg had them this game) and found them to be quite good. There seems to be a bunch of decent hulls that don't see much use. Though maybe its a much to do with "design simplicity" policy. Before that existed it was a bigger deal to get to big ships quicker, and the mid-sized organic hulls (after the symbiots/statics) were maybe too late to compete with self-gravs.
Earlier game Ophiuchus had those red ships I think even earlier than I this game. But he did not go stealth (that time?) I never used gravs myself, I gathered on forums and in MP21 they are nice price wise except the factory to build them is rather expensive and it is somewhat harder for me to justify having them early. Later on probably nicer but I did not miss them. Crystalline ships are better defensively Ai suppose and I did invest in reprocessor.
.

The other arm of organics fits better with my presumed research path as I indeed prefer the xenobiology stuff rather than terraforming. But for reds you can somewhat skip on repair techs and they seem to have good staying power and actually I had some use of terraforming to hit 20 stability for more RP/PP (for pure energy metabolism.. coupled with higher pop too of course). Oh and yes that research path to bio ships puts you close to pure energy metabolism which worked out well for me

That other arm of organics still is nice, not that expensive shipyard compared to gravs and can still sport lots of armor and be fast. Endhu had a formidable fleet of those I think. In the end I put out some myself but those haven't seen much use. However tbh simple static hull already is great and then you rather go with better armor first to slap on those rather than the ships higher in line (and the static hulks require just the incubator not the other building too)

Robotic ships feel too expensive to me however you have certainly shown me those early ones have more staying power in early game than statics so dunno maybe worth getting some of those after all. Though I think I would still want that PP put into other use but not having ship killed does make sense, it is ultimate in not wasting PP :)

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#119 Post by Oberlus »

The balance between robotic hull and the early organic hulls (symbiotic, static) is close to good, but I think organics are mostly superior.
Every time I go for robotics against human players I regret it (except once with robotic interface shields for some early game laughs).
- The +20 speed is right in the spot for default star lane lengths: there are lots of lanes with length around 90 uu. (Also, when playing defensively, the lighthouses and the policy for extra speed are great for robotic hulls).
- Organic die more often, but are easier to mass up and cause more (and more expensive) losses on robotic fleets. In this match with wobbly, his organic fleets could win against my robotics with similar total damage and hull points (maybe he used good chaff composition, I never paid attention to detailed combat logs).
- Fuel is a problem too, organics can use one or two internal slots for fuel.

So I think robotics are OK (or even better than organics?) for defense of your own systems, but for skirmishing and frontal assaults organics are better.

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Re: Twenty-third game on the multiplayer slow game server

#120 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 7:53 am The balance between robotic hull and the early organic hulls (symbiotic, static) is close to good, but I think organics are mostly superior.
Every time I go for robotics against human players I regret it (except once with robotic interface shields for some early game laughs).
- The +20 speed is right in the spot for default star lane lengths: there are lots of lanes with length around 90 uu. (Also, when playing defensively, the lighthouses and the policy for extra speed are great for robotic hulls).
- Organic die more often, but are easier to mass up and cause more (and more expensive) losses on robotic fleets. In this match with wobbly, his organic fleets could win against my robotics with similar total damage and hull points (maybe he used good chaff composition, I never paid attention to detailed combat logs).
- Fuel is a problem too, organics can use one or two internal slots for fuel.

So I think robotics are OK (or even better than organics?) for defense of your own systems, but for skirmishing and frontal assaults organics are better.
Robotics are the first 2nd tier hull you can reach (including time to build incubator) and while expensive, very strong at that point. They stop being in any real competition with statics at around diamond/rock armour and plasma. The better the armour tech, the less of an advantange the chunkier robots have. That said any old robotic ships that survives to that period will still be chunky, even if their firepower is subpar.

1 thing I noticed when charge policy was added is it shifted the balance towards the symbiots/statics that sit at 100uu base. This policy is pretty OP, particularly on a carrier and I've been wondering how to balance it ever since it entered the game.

An idea I just thought of is to move that sweet spot to 120uu, which would be energy hull base speed. Benefits:
  • give energy hull (the never used line) a boost
  • restore old balance with robotics/organics
  • give more benefit for the 1st speed part in an organic, or 2nd in a flux/self-grav
  • more tactical dynamics with traffic control/lighthouse
I'm not sure what others think about charge? Perhaps deserves some discussion, in its own thread?

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