Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

For topics that do not fit in another sub-forum.

Moderator: Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#166 Post by Oberlus »

I guess there's no one apart from the current players.

Allies of Ophiuchus (that's me and... o01eg)
o01eg, do you mind if I babysit Ophi's empire? Because that means getting vision over your space and your current strategy. I myself don't feel comfortable about that, if asked by someone else, but since you are the server sysop and already have access to the saves if you really wanted to cheat, I see no problem on you babysitting Ophi's empire. And I could promise to do the babysitting without poking my nose on your empire.
So, up to you, o01eg.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#167 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:47 amI suspect Oberlus can see most of o01eg's space already.
Ophiuchus' scouting revealed many systems within o01eg's supply, but I can't see his capital or half of his borders.

o01eg
Programmer
Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:46 am

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#168 Post by o01eg »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:55 am I guess there's no one apart from the current players.

Allies of Ophiuchus (that's me and... o01eg)
o01eg, do you mind if I babysit Ophi's empire? Because that means getting vision over your space and your current strategy. I myself don't feel comfortable about that, if asked by someone else, but since you are the server sysop and already have access to the saves if you really wanted to cheat, I see no problem on you babysitting Ophi's empire. And I could promise to do the babysitting without poking my nose on your empire.
So, up to you, o01eg.
I think I fine with it. Ophi, what do you think? When I should enable delegation?

Granted delegation to Oberlus.
Gentoo Linux x64, gcc-11.2, boost-1.78.0
Ubuntu Server 22.04 x64, gcc-12, boost-1.74.0
Welcome to the slow multiplayer game at freeorion-lt.dedyn.io.Version 2024-03-15.b3de094.
Donations're welcome:BTC:bc1q007qldm6eppqcukewtfkfcj0naut9njj7audnm

Ophiuchus
Programmer
Posts: 3433
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:01 am
Location: Wall IV

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#169 Post by Ophiuchus »

o01eg wrote: Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:32 pm I think I fine with it. Ophi, what do you think? When I should enable delegation?

Granted delegation to Oberlus.
+1
If you guys are cool about it, it is fine for me
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

BlueAward
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#170 Post by BlueAward »

Hey, Oberlus, wanna hold my capital for a second? I'll build Imperial Palace and Military Command in some other place and we can rinse repeat for a bit so I can farm all the extra military and economic policy slots once you give those back to me! I will surely enjoy those then! Yeah I know losing the capital sucks for a bit but hey, maybe it's worth it, especially if you'll keep some of the extra planets I'll build up for extra slots, too, huh? Enticing?

It's an interesting question, perhaps to put in the "scorched earth tactics" section, should the capital even be giftable? You already can't make it independent, though you can evacuate it. The latter I suppose could be useful to spread population a bit in exchange of lost production and science, but I am still not actually convinced that should apply to the capital even though initially that's the biggest planet you have. Though if you are determined there are many ways to destroy your capital or any planet/population for that matter, if you have resources for it like time, production, research

But yeah anyway, as we all know through the galactical social network, DB and Endhu continue denial tactics, to the point that Endhu gifted his capital to Daybreak, and it turns out to be slightly more than I would expect, cause DB keeps the extra military and economic slots from military command and imperial palace that are left around. I was thinking keeping Automated History Analyser looked weird too, but I suppose that can be built where Cultural Archives are, and those I think aren't normally destroyed unless someone is in scorched earth mood, so probably keeping AHA is fine. But certainly not imperial palace, and military command likely neither! I've opened a bug report https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/4371

EDIT: hey I suppose while military slots are maybe less interesting, they are easier to multiply, as military command can be built anywhere so no need to lose your capital, even.. so why research Distributed Tought Computing or Temporal Mechanics, eh?

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#171 Post by Oberlus »

Palace and Command Center are expected to be unique buildings, so should be destroyed upon gifting.

Keeping AHA on gifting is OK. If you happen to get your hands on a second Cultural Archives without AHA, you are allowed to build one.

I am disappointed with Daybreak and Endhu's exploitations of these bugs. It will boost Daybreaks power, not help Endhu to survive, so it's not only lame but also unfair.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#172 Post by Oberlus »

I'm not enjoying the fixed-weird diplomatic relations, not only because of the planet-gifting bug that DB and Endhu are exploiting, but mostly because of that.

Also, this game is taking forever. I am missing MP playtesting for current release candidate.

Could we drop this game and start a new one?

BlueAward
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#173 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:13 pm I am disappointed with Daybreak and Endhu's exploitations of these bugs. It will boost Daybreaks power, not help Endhu to survive, so it's not only lame but also unfair.
To be fair it's not like they knew it would happen, I mean I knew because I tested it before locally but reported only when it actually happened, wasn't sure if they would go for the exchange. I certainly failed to prevent it! :O And probably shame on me for not reporting it earlier :( (though it was only a few days)

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#174 Post by Oberlus »

BlueAward wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:21 pm To be fair it's not like they knew it would happen, I mean I knew because I tested it before locally but reported only when it actually happened, wasn't sure if they would go for the exchange. I certainly failed to prevent it! :O And probably shame on me for not reporting it earlier :( (though it was only a few days)
True, but you failed to prevent it only because you have fixed peace with Daybreak and his empire is behaving as having war with you (his warships gifted to Endhu if you don't keep enough forces in the area). You would need no help from my part if you could just declare war to Daybreak and stop the charade.

BlueAward
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#175 Post by BlueAward »

BlueAward wrote: Tue Nov 01, 2022 3:18 pm I wonder what sort of trolling will go on with this war between allies thing, never mind stuff like last minute gifting of your worlds to allied empire not at war with your incoming belligerent.
Prophetic words indeed ;) I suppose if I were in need and I found a willing participant, I would do the same. So I really don't blame DB and Endhu for that in general. It's just it was too literal with the bug that gifted my conquered planet to DB, and the other thing about imperial palace and military command not nice either.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:20 pm I'm not enjoying the fixed-weird diplomatic relations, not only because of the planet-gifting bug that DB and Endhu are exploiting, but mostly because of that.

Also, this game is taking forever. I am missing MP playtesting for current release candidate.

Could we drop this game and start a new one?
I did predict it would be an awkward game before we started, but utlimately I really was game for anything. I think we wanted to test some weird supply mechanics involving allies at war etc but not convinced we did so yet (or is there a need for that, actually). Probably if wobbly's supply actually connected with Oberlus's, wobbly and I could see something

My preferred next game would be no diplomacy and not in a boxed galaxy, maybe some other topology that doesn't make one person in the middle of everything. And perhaps with 24h countdown, not 48h, though it might be even harder to setup delegation if needed if it truly were no diplomacy version

That is not to say I'm unhappy about the current game, I might have had the most fun so far out of all of ya, despite DB's and Endhu's shenanigans, certainly very different experience from what I had in MP21. Which was fun to me as well, for the record, but in a different way.

Seems bit dissapointing not to conclude these games, but maybe this indeed is not their purpose (though arguably means end game content is barely being tested). Moving onto the release candidate seems reasonable in that light

User avatar
LienRag
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2148
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#176 Post by LienRag »

I accepted this weird diplomacy rules only because you insisted on them but they're really devious, I like them so far !
Oberlus, if you're bored, try some action maybe ?

And again, if games get boring, the answer is not to start another but to fix what made them boring in the first place.

About the bug, I'm surprised indeed that the Military Command and the Imperial Palace are not destroyed in gifting as they are in conquest...
Last game with Ophiuchus we saw that with Interspecies Design Academy but didn't realize that it was a bug, so didn't report it.

We should probably try with Imperial Regional Administration then ?

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 5715
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#177 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:01 pm Oberlus, if you're bored, try some action maybe ?
I'm not bored, why you think that?
Disappointed and annoyed have nothing to do with boredome.
I can attack someone, but I can't force a faster game.
LienRag wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:01 pm And again, if games get boring, the answer is not to start another but to fix what made them boring in the first place.
Missing the point, completely. Dunno what you read.

BlueAward
Vacuum Dragon
Posts: 646
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:15 am

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#178 Post by BlueAward »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:01 pm
About the bug, I'm surprised indeed that the Military Command and the Imperial Palace are not destroyed in gifting as they are in conquest...
Last game with Ophiuchus we saw that with Interspecies Design Academy but didn't realize that it was a bug, so didn't report it.

We should probably try with Imperial Regional Administration then ?
Actually, is Military Command destroyed upon conquest if you don't have one already? Thinking about it potentially even Imperial Palace could stay around, if you happened not to have one at the time

I would think the bottom line is that newly acquired buildings should not violate intended constraints, both upon conquest and upon gifting. So if you didn't have one, Military Command and Imperial Palace maybe are ok, but not if you had other copy already? Similar Design Acadamy - if it does not violate number and species and vicinity requirements, it could stay? Does the vicinity requirement in the Interspecies Design Acadamy to another one work across empire boundaries? What about IRA, does it work accross boundaries? In theory IRA could stay as well if you didn't have one in the vicinity.

So first, if conquest and gifting should be considered differently. If yes, some things could be destroyed regardless if they violated constrains or not in one situation, but not the other

Second, is the destruction as a principle important, or should anything stay around if it doesn't violate rules like species, discovered technologies, proximity to other stuff, count of buildings present already?

wobbly
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 1880
Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#179 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 11:01 pm And again, if games get boring, the answer is not to start another but to fix what made them boring in the first place.
I'm all for fixing people who turn too slow, but I'm running low on human spare parts at the moment. Need to go out and obtain some more.

More seriously I wonder if people would turn a little more regularly with game access via phone, though obviously in the short term we don't have that option.

Endhu
Pupating Mass
Posts: 99
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:04 pm

Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#180 Post by Endhu »

That exploit was not intended, yes. The logical thing is that those buildings disappear.

From my perspective, denial tactics are the best course of action. I had doubts about it after the outpost capture bug, but then this particular game is pretty nonstandard. I myself came into it counting with shenanigans.
If we collectively agree that diplomacy abuse is bad and unsporting then I can stop doing it.

Post Reply