Xenophobic trait issues

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Oberlus
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#46 Post by Oberlus »

I agree that having more policies would be great.

I suggested several in the past, recent and not. Most of those got no or mixed feedback. It's really hard to keep everybody happystable.

For next release I bet we have no time to add new policies and flesh them out correctly, so I think it is sensible to try and fix the balance and playability of the ones we have.

However, if someone does the job before release, it would be great.

So, whoever wants a re-education camps policy, go implement it.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#47 Post by Daybreak »

I would like to see xenophobic races accept other xenophobic races without any harrasment, and no loss of stability, or a much smaller stability malus, from racial purity.

Basically, they like other xenophobic races because they keep to themselves and never interfere in each others affairs unlike other races, who can't help but stick their noses where they are not wanted. Even under racial purity

I think this would give another slight boost to xenophobic races and allow an empire to have ownership of a different xenophobic race.

Anybody that has played a xenophobic race would realise that although not impossible it would be very very difficult to play racial purity, with that -10 stability malus and still keep owndership of another xenophobic species.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#48 Post by Oberlus »

-1
Daybreak wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:54 am I would like to see xenophobic races accept other xenophobic races without any harrasment, and no loss of stability, or a much smaller stability malus, from racial purity.

Basically, they like other xenophobic races because they keep to themselves and never interfere in each others affairs unlike other races, who can't help but stick their noses where they are not wanted. Even under racial purity
I don't like that reasoning.

Xenophobics are not xenophobics because others don't keep to themselves, but because they (for whatever reason) dislike others. Other xenophobics are still others.

The current fluff of Racial Purity is about single species dominating or exterminating other species. You could have a non-xenophobic species adopting Racial Purity and going that route. It is not about privileges for any xenophobic species, but about the dominating (capital) species being a jerk to the other species in the empire.

And regarding species fluff, Eaxaw just can't keep to themselves, they are total jerks hell-bent on harassing other species. And no one can keep to themselves from the perspective of the Trith, the other will just keep thinking and annoying Trith to death.
Daybreak wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:54 am Anybody that has played a xenophobic race would realise that although not impossible it would be very very difficult to play racial purity, with that -10 stability malus and still keep owndership of another xenophobic species.
If you go Racial Purity Trith, I think it's easy to keep stable an Eaxaw planet set to protection. No need to spam Eaxaw in terran worlds to use with industry focus, there is always better options.
If you go Racial Purity Eaxaw, having Trith in a far corner (to avoid their xenophobic frenzy and the population malus) focused to industry could be something of use in certain situations, but I think I would just put them to conc. camps, or stage a coup d'Etat an move the capital to Trith.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#49 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:54 am
-1, see Oberlus reasons. There is no gameplay reason why a xenophobic empire must be able to incorporate many colonies of other xenophobic species. So I dont see the need for a solution. Also the proposed one is rather bad design (adding an exemption rule for a quite specific occurance) and breaking fluff/story.

side note, i think gameplay wise concentration camps were completely superpowered in 0.4.10, so dont forget racial purity is intended to balance that.
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#50 Post by Daybreak »

Well maybe the backstory is not so correct, and could be improved.

I stand by my calculations, that it will be nearly impossible for one xenophobic to have control over another under Racial purity policy. Only if a pretty well completely isolated area is available will it work.

In a MP game with fixed allies it may be easier, but other games will be more difficult.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#51 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:52 pm I stand by my calculations, that it will be nearly impossible for one xenophobic to have control over another under Racial purity policy. Only if a pretty well completely isolated area is available will it work.
and that would be a problem... why?
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#52 Post by Oberlus »

I also can't see how is that a problem.

Anyways:
Daybreak wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:52 pm I stand by my calculations
What calculations? There are no numbers in your last two posts in this thread.

Remember: "RIS OP". I can't trust your "calculations", Daybreak :wink:

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#53 Post by Daybreak »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 6:57 am Remember: "RIS OP". I can't trust your "calculations", Daybreak :wink:
RIS is way OP - if you had some interceptors and fighters protecting that stack, it would still be sailing around, probably be able to sail out of MP 20 into MP21, thats how op it was :lol:

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#54 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:19 pm PR in progress: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4113
I forgot to add the growing and fading effects on stability, but then I think it will be ready.
Comments are welcome.
Hey, adopting racial purity now disables some foci like research, but if the focus was already selected, it does not alter it (this is 17Oct2022 build). So the inferior race is still doing research, at least until stability allows it, but I suppose Necessity to the rescue otherwise

EDIT: I suppose it could be forcing default species focus, or production, depending on what foci are allowed (noting some species do not have production focus, but perhaps under slavery they should)

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#55 Post by Oberlus »

BlueAward wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:14 am Hey, adopting racial purity now disables some foci like research, but if the focus was already selected, it does not alter it (this is 17Oct2022 build). So the inferior race is still doing research, at least until stability allows it, but I suppose Necessity to the rescue otherwise

EDIT: I suppose it could be forcing default species focus, or production, depending on what foci are allowed (noting some species do not have production focus, but perhaps under slavery they should)
Good catch.
I'll find time to fix it.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#56 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:47 am
BlueAward wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:14 am Hey, adopting racial purity now disables some foci like research, but if the focus was already selected, it does not alter it (this is 17Oct2022 build). So the inferior race is still doing research, at least until stability allows it, but I suppose Necessity to the rescue otherwise

EDIT: I suppose it could be forcing default species focus, or production, depending on what foci are allowed (noting some species do not have production focus, but perhaps under slavery they should)
Good catch.
I'll find time to fix it.
does this need fixing? currently one cant switch away and back. maybe that is enough.
Actually is there a gameplay reason why the focus is actually restricted?

also mind switching focus usually has a high cost (think bureaucracy), so adopting and deadopting racial purity might in some cases be cheaper than manual focus switching(?).

cans of xenophobic worms wherever you look
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#57 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 am does this need fixing? currently one cant switch away and back. maybe that is enough.
Actually is there a gameplay reason why the focus is actually restricted?
Yes, needs fixing (or changing the policy to not restrict foci of enslaved worlds).
It should be easy to fix.

No more gameplay reason than making it different from other strategies/policies, as well as no gameplay reasons to not have the foci restriction.
Plus it makes a lot of sense that mistreated slaves are not good scientists or governors/managers/whatever (influence)
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 am also mind switching focus usually has a high cost (think bureaucracy), so adopting and deadopting racial purity might in some cases be cheaper than manual focus switching(?).
Racial Purity has a high toll on the stability of non-capital species: immediate -10 that fades off at -0.5 per turn. So having Bureacracy and "exploiting" Racial Purity to avoid the costs of foci-switching in your non-capital planets would be quite silly. Plus the cost of adopting and deadopting the policy would make it even more ridiculous even without the stability malus.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 am cans of xenophobic worms wherever you look
Nopes, just shallow analysis on your side.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#58 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:10 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 am Actually is there a gameplay reason why the focus is actually restricted?
No more gameplay reason than making it different from other strategies/policies, as well as no gameplay reasons to not have the foci restriction.
Plus it makes a lot of sense that mistreated slaves are not good scientists or governors/managers/whatever (influence)
so for fluff and spice. ok.
Oberlus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:10 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 am also mind switching focus usually has a high cost (think bureaucracy), so adopting and deadopting racial purity might in some cases be cheaper than manual focus switching(?).
Racial Purity has a high toll on the stability of non-capital species: immediate -10 that fades off at -0.5 per turn.
ah was not aware of this one anymore. downs the target meter; maybe one could make this less desastrous with the right policies. i dont think having 10 spare stability happens too often
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 am Plus the cost of adopting and deadopting the policy would make it even more ridiculous even without the stability malus.
adopting is basically 2*sqrt(population) IP. So like 20 for 100 pop. -3 influence meter usually means -6IP. So a net gain already if you switch at least four planets.
But if one would have to deadopt something to make a slot free would also incur the readopt cost.
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:20 amNopes, just shallow analysis on your side.
well, mostly i agree. havent played xenophobes in a long while and everything changed.
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#59 Post by BlueAward »

Is xenophobic frenzy supposed to work per planet in vicinity or per different species in vicinity? I suppose it works per planet, but it does not seem to be explained, like what vicinity, is it hops or uu (universe units?)

I played with Trith a bit and my main beef now are ancient guardians affecting my population (stability too). Seems to me like the best thing Trith have going for them is their metabolism type, supposed to be balanced by xenophobic frenzy(*). But those ancient guardians seem to be always around and very hard to deal with, and cannot even be worked to death to recapture some production lost when getting them as they explode on their own when conquered. Other races can sort of ignore those guardians for the most part and grab the stuff at their leisure, but they can really be a toll on Trith empire and hard to ignore. Bombardment to the rescue I guess but it is not exactly easy proposition to prioritize

I do not have full understanding on how the maluses are calculated and if other empire's exobots or various monsters count... but perhaps ancient guardians should be ignored like I think exobots are

Or I would get slightly less salty too if xenophobes or at least trith got cheaper bombardment tech(s) (maybe another benefit to racial purity for everybody to consider)

(*) granted I do appreciate better planetary stealth amd detection range too

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#60 Post by Oberlus »

BlueAward wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:04 pm Is xenophobic frenzy supposed to work per planet in vicinity or per different species in vicinity? I suppose it works per planet, but it does not seem to be explained, like what vicinity, is it hops or uu (universe units?)
Copied from Pedia page for Xenophobic with the PR merged:
Xenophobic species get upset by the nearby pressence of other intelligent species, and will divert some of their efforts into harassing them, reducing both species' Target Stability dependent on the distance between their planets. At a distance of 4 jumps, the penalty is -0.50, and grows by that amount per starlane jump closer. The penalty is cumulative for each offending planet nearby:
• 4 jumps: -0.5 stability
• 3 jumps: -1.0 stability
• 2 jumps: -1.5 stability
• 1 jumps: -2.0 stability
• In same system: -2.5 stability

I played with Trith a bit and my main beef now are ancient guardians affecting my population (stability too).
That haven't changed in a long time.

Exobots doesn't count, regardless of owner, IIRC.
perhaps ancient guardians should be ignored like I think exobots are
Open to debate. I haven't seen them as a problem when I played Trith. I just invade them and they disapear.
Or I would get slightly less salty too if xenophobes or at least trith got cheaper bombardment tech(s)
That sounds OK. In Racial Purity better? I think it makes little sense to get cheaper bombardment when you capture a xenophobic species.

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