Xenophobic trait issues

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Oberlus
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#31 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:02 pm I mean, that it can be used in a way that was not anticipated, and which brings results way more powerful than how it was supposed to be played.

Racial Purity is supposed to be played as a xenophobic empire, if everybody plays it before invading their first natives (or enemy planets) it's not how it was balanced to work.
Well, that's exactly why wobbly suggested the fading effect for the stability malus.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#32 Post by o01eg »

LienRag wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:02 pm I mean, that it can be used in a way that was not anticipated, and which brings results way more powerful than how it was supposed to be played.

Racial Purity is supposed to be played as a xenophobic empire, if everybody plays it before invading their first natives (or enemy planets) it's not how it was balanced to work.
It could be encouraged or discouraged with likes and dislikes.
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Grummel7
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#33 Post by Grummel7 »

Instead of giving a bonus, we could change the influence upkeep to grow more slowly with racial purity. So it won't be worth the cost for a small empire, unless you want to keep it, but it still helps to maintain a big single-species empire.

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LienRag
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#34 Post by LienRag »

Grummel7 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:14 pm Instead of giving a bonus, we could change the influence upkeep to grow more slowly with racial purity. So it won't be worth the cost for a small empire, unless you want to keep it, but it still helps to maintain a big single-species empire.
Interesting idea, yes.
Difficult to balance (and even more to keep balanced), though.

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LienRag
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#35 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:34 pm Well, that's exactly why wobbly suggested the fading effect for the stability malus.
I know, but it seems hacky to me.

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Oberlus
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#36 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 5:02 pm Racial Purity is supposed to be played as a xenophobic empire, if everybody plays it before invading their first natives (or enemy planets) it's not how it was balanced to work.
Thinking of this...
Either the policy is only unlocked for empires that start with a Xenophobic species, or the policy is made so that it is not good for empires that don't stick to the policy.

The first choice is more restrictive gameplay-wise, and I am sure I'd like to roleplay slaver or eradicator empires despite not having started with a xenophobic species.

So I am all in for the second option: make the policy hardly interesting for empires that don't want to be "slavers" or "eradicators".

For that, I like the suggestion from wobbly: make the penalties long-lasting after de-adopting the policy.
And I'll add more: make the bonuses require time to grow to max.
Plus the good effect that only applies to xenophobic species (the removal of penalties on the capital xenophobic species from owned different species).

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LienRag
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#37 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:15 am Either the policy is only unlocked for empires that start with a Xenophobic species, or the policy is made so that it is not good for empires that don't stick to the policy.
That's what I meant...
I'm not sure that a delay will be sufficient to make it unappealing for temporary monospecies Empire, though.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#38 Post by wobbly »

Which is probably fine, as long as its not over powered, as there is competition for the slot. Racism is pretty common in mono-cultures, its not a huge disaster if some players take this policy early then unadopt it.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#39 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 4:40 am Which is probably fine, as long as its not over powered, as there is competition for the slot. Racism is pretty common in mono-cultures, its not a huge disaster if some players take this policy early then unadopt it.
+1 good enough to try/playtest
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Oberlus
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#40 Post by Oberlus »

PR in progress: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4113
I forgot to add the growing and fading effects on stability, but then I think it will be ready.
Comments are welcome.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#41 Post by Daybreak »

I think we need to create more of a path with policies for Xenophobic races as well

I would like to see Centralisation policy be changed if empire is Xenophobic, and maluses removed
Specifically, these do not apply -
pedia wrote: However, it also reduces Supply range (-2.00) and Stockpile Distribution (-2.00), and increases the Influence cost of the empire's colonies:
• Supply connected colonies get a penalization of -0.50 per jump distance to the capital, capped at -4.00.
• Colonies not Supply connected to the capital gets the maximum penalization (-4.00).
Additionally, the cost of colonization ship parts is increased by 50%.
and maybe introduce a new policy "Re-education Camps"
Which reduces the Stability and Population malus for Xenophobic races, experienced for other races nearby if captured.
but reduces output from those colonies as well, but not as much as harrassment, but for influence and research, as well as production.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#42 Post by Ophiuchus »

Daybreak wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:52 pm I would like to see Centralisation policy be changed if empire is Xenophobic, and maluses removed
What? Why? No
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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#43 Post by wobbly »

Quick note, the Ancient Robot Guardian natives should probably count as exobots for this

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#44 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:52 pm and maybe introduce a new policy "Re-education Camps"
Which reduces the Stability and Population malus for Xenophobic races, experienced for other races nearby if captured.
but reduces output from those colonies as well, but not as much as harrassment, but for influence and research, as well as production.
I bet you haven't checked the changes in the PR. You are propossing basically what I've put in the PR for Racial Purity.

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Re: Xenophobic trait issues

#45 Post by Daybreak »

* I see the racial purity as one path possibly leading to extermination of natives, AND agree to the changes you have made.
* I see re-education camps as slightly different, basically making natives slaves, and has a slightly different outcome.

Basically I see re-education camps as something you use early to mid game, then later you could use racial purity and concentration camps, when you can afford terraforming, etc, to replace with your own species (something you cant do early on, as you dont have the tech for it.)


Centralisation Policy -
A centralisation policy could suit a Xenophobic race- centralised dictatorship government. However as it is now, it is used initially to unlock Metropoles and Bureaucracy, but after that it is a pretty useless due to the huge malus on supply. Most will use it in frst few turns of a game, and then try never to use it again.

To me there are quite a few biases within the game - I think it would be great to have a few more paths different species can follow.

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