0.5 release

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Ophiuchus
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Re: 0.5 release

#46 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:32 am Especially, the spread in costs should probably not be reduced.
? not sure what you mean by that ? max RP - min RP ? why would an absolute value there be important ?

in <= 0.4.9 we had a spread like 100 200 400 800 (so exponential growth )

with a roughly fitting exponential RP growth one would take the same number of turns for each level.

if RP production progression instead of 100 200 400 800 is now like 100 140 200 280 then for keeping the balance, the max-min should be 180 instead of 700
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LienRag
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Re: 0.5 release

#47 Post by LienRag »

Well, after Oberlus' nerf and the Influence-induced nerf, late techs became much more expensive.
I understand that it wasn't entirely an intended effect and that rebalancing needs to happen, but their expensiveness is partly a good thing, in that it's quite hard to get them (which is good; being impossible would be bad, but hard is good - which may need balance is how hard they should be and which should be harder to get than others), and more importantly that's it's necessary to make choices as it's not possible anymore to research everything until maybe very late game.

So, having a large spread between cheap techs (the ones you get when you have low Research) and expensive techs (the ones that need a real investment in the Research route) is a good thing.
If you reduce this gap, it means that you just have early techs, middle techs and late techs.

As of now the player can't consider that the more expensive techs will be searchable in endgame just by the virtue of it being endgame, he has to choose either to stick with lower-cost techs or to make sure to have a really strong research.

That is indeed a good thing and shouldn't be changed.

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Oberlus
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Re: 0.5 release

#48 Post by Oberlus »

Some examples of the recent changes (can all be tested, already merged in master):

Armors (small discounts because they were already relatively cheap and practically a no-brainer):
Zortrium: 60 -> 60
Diamond: 300 -> 280
Xentronium: 1500 -> 1200

Fighters:
12 -> 12
90 -> 90
450 -> 360
2250 -> 1500

MD and Laser: untouched
Plasma:
300 -> 280
200 -> 180
300 -> 260
500 -> 400
Death Ray:
1500 -> 1000
1000 -> 600
1500 -> 900
2500 -> 1200

Shields (much bigger discounts):
Deflector: 300 -> 240
Plasma: 1500 -> 900
Multispectral: 4000 -> 1800
Black: 7500 -> 2500

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LienRag
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Re: 0.5 release

#49 Post by LienRag »

You may be right for shields, but I believe that Death Rays and Death Ray Fighters should not be reduced that much.

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Oberlus
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Re: 0.5 release

#50 Post by Oberlus »

Other techs of the same "tier"/similar cost that are not weapons are 50% cheaper, while DR are only 33% cheaper. I think it'smore or less right. Playtest it.

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Re: 0.5 release

#51 Post by Daybreak »

I don't think shield research is so much the problem, than the cost of putting them on a ship, considering you alo lose an internal slot. I would like to also halve the cost of doing that as well for testing.

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Oberlus
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Re: 0.5 release

#52 Post by Oberlus »

You can try that whenever you like: change the cost on your default folder and try it.

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LienRag
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Re: 0.5 release

#53 Post by LienRag »

Playtested them and late-game techs' cost have been reduced way too much.
I know that brings them back to how things were before both nerfs but having techs really hard to reach was a good thing.

Bringing back Death Rays to a higher cost would make Plasma Cannons 4 a more valid choices, leading to more varied strategies.

At least Death Ray 4 (and maybe 3) should be much more expensive, so that not all Empires can aim to get them.

Not sure about Black Shields, my gut says that they also should me much more expensive (so that the player that is able to get them has a clear advantage over others) but since Shields in general are easily countered by fighters, it may be unbalanced to give them a high cost.

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Oberlus
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Re: 0.5 release

#54 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:29 pm having techs really hard to reach was a good thing.
Players that want the tech tree to take longer to deplete can increase research tech cost.
LienRag wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:29 pm Bringing back Death Rays to a higher cost would make Plasma Cannons 4 a more valid choices, leading to more varied strategies.
Plasma 4 is always a valid choice if you built up many plasmas (1-3) before getting Death Rays.

Plasma: 280 (9) + 180 (+3) + 260 (+3) + 400 (+3)
DR: 1000 (15 dmg) + 600 (+5) + 900 (+5) + 1200 (+5)
Those 400 from Plasma 4 is a little effort compared to the 3700 RP of getting to DR4.
The total cost for plasma 4, 1120, requires 3.3 times less RP than DR4. The number of ships with plasmas you can build until you get DR is significant.
LienRag wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 4:29 pm At least Death Ray 4 (and maybe 3) should be much more expensive, so that not all Empires can aim to get them.
Once you are already at DR2, you don't mind much on how long it will take to get DR4 (+50% damage for average pilots), because all ships will be upgraded when you get to it.

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Re: 0.5 release

#55 Post by wobbly »

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/4150

should be included in v0.5

I believe the pedia is in a better state then last release, and mostly this:

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4099

should go through.

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LienRag
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Re: 0.5 release

#56 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:56 pm Players that want the tech tree to take longer to deplete can increase research tech cost.

That won't change the spread.

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Re: 0.5 release

#57 Post by wobbly »

2 Other things I'd like to take to release (Maybe I should open issues?). How should traffic control operate in alliances? How should lighthouses? How should lighthouses work for alllies/neutrals/enemies?

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Oberlus
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Re: 0.5 release

#58 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:04 pm
Oberlus wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:56 pm Players that want the tech tree to take longer to deplete can increase research tech cost.
That won't change the spread.
But will change the time needed to get to next level, increasing useful time for earlier techs, which is what you look for with the spread.
What we had before was a short lifespan for laser and long for plasma, now they are not so different, which is better. Now, if you want plasma lifespan longer, you increase research tech cost and also increase laser lifespan. If you only want plasma lifespan longer like before for whatever reason, a more complex way of weighting the research costs could be implemented, but I don't think that is interesting to many players (only heard of you complaining about this).

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Vezzra
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Re: 0.5 release

#59 Post by Vezzra »

wobbly wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 2:15 pm https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/4150

should be included in v0.5

I believe the pedia is in a better state then last release, and mostly this:

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4099

should go through.
Both have been assigned to the 0.5 milestone, so will be indcluded into the release.

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Vezzra
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Re: 0.5 release

#60 Post by Vezzra »

wobbly wrote: Sun Oct 09, 2022 4:06 pm 2 Other things I'd like to take to release (Maybe I should open issues?). How should traffic control operate in alliances? How should lighthouses? How should lighthouses work for alllies/neutrals/enemies?
Well, there are probably a lot of things/issues, which would be nice to have/address in 0.5. But we need to draw the line somewhere, or we will never get the release out. At our last voice chat meeting (on Oct 4th) we actually removed a lot of stuff from the 0.5 milestone. The decision is that only things that are really necessary for the release should be considered release blocking, and therefore assigned to the 0.5 milestone.

Everything else should be postponed to the next release cycle.

So, the question is, is it really necessary to include these items/issues (traffic control and lighthouses in alliances, with neutrals and enemies) into 0.5? How serious/game impeding are these issues?

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