Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

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Oberlus
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#16 Post by Oberlus » Sat May 02, 2020 6:29 am

labgnome wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:38 am
I was under the impression that we were going to go with Envirobrains and Harmonoliths for the non exobot environments as per this thread, or are they off the table for now?
I also like that idea more than the Ebobots-everywhere (I have it in the tables for the themed tech tree).
This one was just faster to implement in current tech tree and got better reception among some of the multiplayer players (commented in the chatroom).

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#17 Post by Oberlus » Sat May 02, 2020 12:38 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 9:09 pm
I do not have the time to analyse, so I do not have objections. I just found your analysis to be incomplete.
My current playtesting (just 2 games against AI and one 1v1 versus ThinkSome) makes me think the proposed PR (i.e. without improments for Exobots, that could come in a follow up PR) is good to merge.
It certainly changes a bit the progression of production output, in that it allows to get sooner certain planets that would otherwise take some 10-20 more turns (as commented in the PR), but it also makes it less productive (but not -63% production, way less than that if you conside Adaptive Automation).

What I see is that this PR, along with PR2915, is not enough to ensure more balanced starting positions. In my game against ThinkSome (he Chato, I random-Etty), I had no good planets (period, not even one), and no planets on my HW. He got both good planets and planets in his HW. By turn 75 he tripled my PP, had 50% more colonies (and 100% more planets). And the Exobots available early for me were not enough to stop the snowballing.
Also Chato OP.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#18 Post by labgnome » Sat May 02, 2020 1:34 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 6:29 am
labgnome wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 3:38 am
I was under the impression that we were going to go with Envirobrains and Harmonoliths for the non exobot environments as per this thread, or are they off the table for now?
I also like that idea more than the Ebobots-everywhere (I have it in the tables for the themed tech tree).
This one was just faster to implement in current tech tree and got better reception among some of the multiplayer players (commented in the chatroom).
Honesty I have mixed feelings about this, on the one hand I was originally for Exobots everywhere, but on the other hand I put a lot of thought and work into the Envirobrains and Harmonoliths and specifically created them to be a compromise for those opposed to the idea.
Oberlus wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:38 pm
What I see is that this PR, along with PR2915, is not enough to ensure more balanced starting positions. In my game against ThinkSome (he Chato, I random-Etty), I had no good planets (period, not even one), and no planets on my HW. He got both good planets and planets in his HW. By turn 75 he tripled my PP, had 50% more colonies (and 100% more planets). And the Exobots available early for me were not enough to stop the snowballing.
Off topic: Stellaris solves this by having "guaranteed habitable worlds" and basically pre-set starting systems as an adjustable settings in game creation. Perhaps something similar in Free Orion. I don't know how difficult it would be to code, but having some kind of guaranteed balance for your starting position might be something to look into. I think that a good starting point would be to have there be at least 2 planets of the same type within 5 jumps of your homeworld. I've also noticed starting in a one planet system a lot more often in more recent versions of the game, so maybe also guarantee a multiple-planet starting system.
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#19 Post by Oberlus » Thu May 07, 2020 5:42 pm

New PR for this.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#20 Post by labgnome » Thu May 07, 2020 10:41 pm

Should Exobots get gas giants as hostile, you know for kicks?
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#21 Post by Oberlus » Fri May 08, 2020 5:21 am

labgnome wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:41 pm
Should Exobots get gas giants as hostile, you know for kicks?
Make sense to me.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#22 Post by labgnome » Fri May 08, 2020 1:20 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:21 am
labgnome wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:41 pm
Should Exobots get gas giants as hostile, you know for kicks?
Make sense to me.
I was half-joking. IIRC the gaseous metabolism was created because Gas Giants would be too powerful with metabolism specials.
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#23 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri May 08, 2020 2:52 pm

labgnome wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:20 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:21 am
labgnome wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 10:41 pm
Should Exobots get gas giants as hostile, you know for kicks?
Make sense to me.
I was half-joking. IIRC the gaseous metabolism was created because Gas Giants would be too powerful with metabolism specials.
Lol, labgnome baited you. 6-habitability is OP on any environment.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#24 Post by Oberlus » Fri May 08, 2020 4:37 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:52 pm
labgnome wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:20 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:21 am
Make sense to me.
I was half-joking. IIRC the gaseous metabolism was created because Gas Giants would be too powerful with metabolism specials.
Lol, labgnome baited you. 6-habitability is OP on any environment.
Oh, I guess Sly should be nerfed then. Oh, wait!
:twisted:

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#25 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri May 08, 2020 5:00 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 4:37 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:52 pm
labgnome wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:20 pm

I was half-joking. IIRC the gaseous metabolism was created because Gas Giants would be too powerful with metabolism specials.
Lol, labgnome baited you. 6-habitability is OP on any environment.
Oh, I guess Sly should be nerfed then. Oh, wait!
:twisted:
Um.. Sly ARE gaseous metabolism. You were part of the design actually. You are sure you are Oberlus?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#26 Post by Oberlus » Fri May 08, 2020 5:15 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 5:00 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 4:37 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:52 pm

Lol, labgnome baited you. 6-habitability is OP on any environment.
Oh, I guess Sly should be nerfed then. Oh, wait!
:twisted:
Um.. Sly ARE gaseous metabolism. You were part of the design actually. You are sure you are Oberlus?
Oh, come on! :lol:
I thought my joke was self-explanatory: I mean that Exobots on GG can use a similar trick than Sly! -75% for example.
Are you sure you are Ophiuchus? :twisted:

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#27 Post by LienRag » Tue May 19, 2020 2:24 am

So this is only for 4.xx versions ?
Because if it goes to 5.0 then making Exobots produce no influence should help balancing them and is quite intuitive immersion-wise.

Also, won't replacing NAI by Algorithmic Elegance (which is a requirement for NAI) in the requirements for Adaptive Automation make AA come earlier in the game ?
For any Science-based strategy AA is the killer tech, so what's the impact on game balance of such a change ?

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#28 Post by Oberlus » Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 am

LienRag wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 2:24 am
Also, won't replacing NAI by Algorithmic Elegance (which is a requirement for NAI) in the requirements for Adaptive Automation make AA come earlier in the game ?
For any Science-based strategy AA is the killer tech, so what's the impact on game balance of such a change ?
Yes, AA needs a nerf.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#29 Post by Ophiuchus » Tue May 19, 2020 9:08 am

LienRag wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 2:24 am
So this is only for 4.xx versions ?
Because if it goes to 5.0 then making Exobots produce no influence should help balancing them and is quite intuitive immersion-wise.
This is not necessarily only for 0.4 - in 0.5 we will get influence mechanic (policies, influence points, influence projects) and hopefully combat ranges and a stealth revamp.

I honestly dont know how influence production will work. But exobots fill the role of a guaranteed almost-average species for those who cant get access to natives.
So if the average species produces influence, exobots must also be able to produce influence.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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