General discusion on new species and traits

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LienRag
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#16 Post by LienRag » Sun May 17, 2020 12:44 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:23 am

I do not find a generic species build system very interesting (if that is what you are striving for). Especially if it ignores how the game actually works. I think if one wanted such a a system, one would have to design the complete game in regard to the system You cant really add it later on (similar like you cant just write software and add later security on top of it). So good idea for freeorion 2.0 maybe?
I wholeheartedly agree.
Such a system would be very interesting if it had a totally new mechanism, not if it is similar to "gearing" characters in RPGs : just adding this and removing that so the total fits under some limit.

To do it in an original and fun way, we would need to invent a full new system of biological/evolutionary rules to follow (well, one by metabolism actually, with some rules being valid for the five of them for coherence), add some psychohistory ones for diversity and flavor, and ingrain in them mechanisms to check for balance.

So yes, definitively FreeOrion 2.0.

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labgnome
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#17 Post by labgnome » Sun May 17, 2020 8:32 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:23 am
I do not find a generic species build system very interesting (if that is what you are striving for). Especially if it ignores how the game actually works. I think if one wanted such a a system, one would have to design the complete game in regard to the system You cant really add it later on (similar like you cant just write software and add later security on top of it). So good idea for freeorion 2.0 maybe?
I would strongly disagree on two fronts. Firstly I wouldn't consider a species creation system "generic" by any stretch. They are one of the most enjoyable parts of such games for me, so not generic. In my opinion you'd have to try to make something like species creation "generic".

Secondly, I also don't think that we would need to rebuild this game from scratch to make a working species creation system. For instance, good traits that are useful for more different strategies could cost more points to add.
No logical connection here. We should strive to have/add value. Symmetry and order are good for overview and generic mechanics/physics but they lack in depth (or any other value). So let me exaggerate: orderly in itself has NO real game value
No, I'm not going to "let" you exaggerate. If you need to exaggerate to make your point that means you don't fully believe what you are saying, and that is arguing in bad faith.

"Orderly" consistently adds value and depth by making things more accessible and understandable, instead of obtuse and arcane.
Also the system is not really messy (in the sense of bad) - using that term was just a juxtaposition to your orderly. It has complex interactions which probably wont fit into a simple scheme.
I don't think that the traits in the game is so complicated that we cannot come up with some kind of effective organizations system for it. Especially since simplicity is in fact a design principle.
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#18 Post by Oberlus » Sun May 17, 2020 8:48 pm

I agree with Ophiuchus 100% here.
@labgnome, it is not that he is exagerating, it is that you are wrong and he was trying to make you understand why:

The system is complex: a simple taxonomy won't work. There are overlappings, it is intrinsic to this system.

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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#19 Post by labgnome » Sun May 17, 2020 8:52 pm

LienRag wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 12:44 pm
I wholeheartedly agree.
Such a system would be very interesting if it had a totally new mechanism, not if it is similar to "gearing" characters in RPGs : just adding this and removing that so the total fits under some limit.

To do it in an original and fun way, we would need to invent a full new system of biological/evolutionary rules to follow (well, one by metabolism actually, with some rules being valid for the five of them for coherence), add some psychohistory ones for diversity and flavor, and ingrain in them mechanisms to check for balance.
I mean you are still going to get adding and removing characteristics just spread across two different categories with what you are proposing. I don't know what else you could mean. Anything else is outside the scope of even a version 2.0.
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#20 Post by labgnome » Sun May 17, 2020 8:58 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:48 pm
I agree with Ophiuchus 100% here.
@labgnome, it is not that he is exagerating, it is that you are wrong and he was trying to make you understand why:

The system is complex: a simple taxonomy won't work. There are overlappings, it is intrinsic to this system.
Organization is consistently the right choice, otherwise it's all just chaos. Maybe my taxonomy is too simple, but we can make one to make the effort work.
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#21 Post by Oberlus » Sun May 17, 2020 9:17 pm

labgnome wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:58 pm
Organization is consistently the right choice, otherwise it's all just chaos. Maybe my taxonomy is too simple, but we can make one to make the effort work.
What I mean is you can't. You can try, you cannot succeed.

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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#22 Post by labgnome » Sun May 17, 2020 9:30 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:17 pm
labgnome wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:58 pm
Organization is consistently the right choice, otherwise it's all just chaos. Maybe my taxonomy is too simple, but we can make one to make the effort work.
What I mean is you can't. You can try, you cannot succeed.
I don't understand this attitude. Are you giving up on your own idea?
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#23 Post by Oberlus » Sun May 17, 2020 9:40 pm

labgnome wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:30 pm
I don't understand this attitude. Are you giving up on your own idea?
Attitude? Just stating what I think.
Giving up on my own idea? Nope.
My idea was to add traits, not to group them in hermetic cathegories.
The taxonomy I added in the thread was to help me estimate how many diverse species we could get depending on the number of distinct traits.

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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#24 Post by labgnome » Sun May 17, 2020 10:45 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:40 pm
labgnome wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:30 pm
I don't understand this attitude. Are you giving up on your own idea?
Attitude? Just stating what I think.
Giving up on my own idea? Nope.
My idea was to add traits, not to group them in hermetic cathegories.
The taxonomy I added in the thread was to help me estimate how many diverse species we could get depending on the number of distinct traits.
I don't understand how that is different form trying to organize them?
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#25 Post by Ophiuchus » Mon May 18, 2020 1:07 pm

labgnome wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:45 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:40 pm
My idea was to add traits, not to group them in hermetic cathegories.
The taxonomy I added in the thread was to help me estimate how many diverse species we could get depending on the number of distinct traits.
I don't understand how that is different form trying to organize them?
Oberlus taxonomy has a narrow target which is to assess design space. To me it looks you are looking for an organisation scheme with general applicability and some good mathematical notions. These are very different beasts.

You and Oberlus are on the same page as both of you want many playable species - I would rather have few but very well defined and distinct playing species (e.g. each empire species has a fitting ascension path, overcoming their own nature). I would also like to have many different species if those are so well defined. But doing this for ten is easier than for fifty.
And I also would like the galaxy to have a bit more space, with empty planets even in the end game.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#26 Post by labgnome » Mon May 18, 2020 2:24 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:07 pm
labgnome wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 10:45 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 9:40 pm
My idea was to add traits, not to group them in hermetic cathegories.
The taxonomy I added in the thread was to help me estimate how many diverse species we could get depending on the number of distinct traits.
I don't understand how that is different form trying to organize them?
Oberlus taxonomy has a narrow target which is to assess design space. To me it looks you are looking for an organisation scheme with general applicability and some good mathematical notions. These are very different beasts.
I suppose I can't help but see the expansion of assessing the design space to implementation of design. It just strikes me as the net logical step.
You and Oberlus are on the same page as both of you want many playable species - I would rather have few but very well defined and distinct playing species (e.g. each empire species has a fitting ascension path, overcoming their own nature). I would also like to have many different species if those are so well defined. But doing this for ten is easier than for fifty.
And I also would like the galaxy to have a bit more space, with empty planets even in the end game.
I mean I'm more for lots of native species, than lots of playable species. As I want more diversity in the game experience. However I would like to see more playable species, my thoughts are maybe more 2 or 3, maybe 4, per regular environment and 1 or 2 each for asteroids and gas giants. I think all the planet types should get at least 4 native species each, 1 the can colonize and build ships, 1 that can colonize but not build ships, 1 that can build ships but not colonize, and 1 that cannot build ships or colonize.

Empty planets (excluding gas giants) in the late game isn't really feasible unless everyone starts out in the same part of the galaxy, as with growth techs all planets become colonizable, even without native species.
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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#27 Post by LienRag » Sat May 30, 2020 4:49 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:07 pm
And I also would like the galaxy to have a bit more space, with empty planets even in the end game.
That depends on galaxy size compared to the number of empires and even more on the upkeep formula, doesn't it ?

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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#28 Post by LienRag » Sat May 30, 2020 4:54 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:07 pm
I would rather have few but very well defined and distinct playing species (e.g. each empire species has a fitting ascension path, overcoming their own nature). I would also like to have many different species if those are so well defined. But doing this for ten is easier than for fifty.
That certainly would be better, but it would mean a complete redesign of the existing, wouldn't it ?
And also have a "design director" who can not only reject bad ideas, but also manage the good ones in order to make something coherent out of them.

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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#29 Post by LienRag » Sat May 30, 2020 5:01 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:05 pm

E.g. the regular planet types are only different, not distinct. Distinctivess is currently only added because of the distinctiveness of the types of species which can live there. Thats why I fight for that the distribution of species traits is different at least for some environments.
You're definitely right, but hasn't that spaceship sailed long ago ?

What do you think of my proposition to make the species distinct by making their environment distinct (via unique buildings) rather than the opposite ?

By the way it's more important imho to make species traits differ by metabolism than by environment.

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Re: General discusion on new species and traits

#30 Post by Ophiuchus » Sat May 30, 2020 5:51 pm

LienRag wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 4:49 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:07 pm
And I also would like the galaxy to have a bit more space, with empty planets even in the end game.
That depends on galaxy size compared to the number of empires and even more on the upkeep formula, doesn't it ?
Upkeep forumla does not exist. The underlying topic is that some parts of colonisation is too easy (or has too much payoff for the cost).

LienRag wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 4:54 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 1:07 pm
I would rather have few but very well defined and distinct playing species (e.g. each empire species has a fitting ascension path, overcoming their own nature). I would also like to have many different species if those are so well defined. But doing this for ten is easier than for fifty.
That certainly would be better, but it would mean a complete redesign of the existing, wouldn't it ?
And also have a "design director" who can not only reject bad ideas, but also manage the good ones in order to make something coherent out of them.
Somebody taking that topic would be good. Complete redesign would not be necessary. There are rather missing pieces to make that happen.

LienRag wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 5:01 pm
Ophiuchus wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:05 pm

E.g. the regular planet types are only different, not distinct. Distinctivess is currently only added because of the distinctiveness of the types of species which can live there. Thats why I fight for that the distribution of species traits is different at least for some environments.
You're definitely right, but hasn't that spaceship sailed long ago ?
No. Just depends on the next species revamp. It would be a waste to not use environment for distinctiveness.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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