Species Opinion System Discussion

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderators: Oberlus, Oberlus

Message
Author
User avatar
The Silent One
Graphics
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:27 pm

Re: Species Opinion System Discussion

#31 Post by The Silent One » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:51 pm

Oberlus wrote:In general, we (you, I and others) have expressed their interest on making military conquest affect species opinion (you know, warlikers and pacifists, Species Values, etc.).
Apologies for repeating myself, but I really think values are something that should be connected to emperors/empires. I personally do not see gameplay value in species-empire relations, and so far there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive explanation how and why it will be fun. My opinion is that it will only complicate the game.

With this, I will stop to bother you and leave you with your discussion, but unless somehow I'm hit by some inspiration, let me express clearly that I will not support SER.
If I provided any images, code, scripts or other content here, it's released under GPL 2.0 and CC-BY-SA 3.0.

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2607
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Species Opinion System Discussion

#32 Post by Oberlus » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:26 pm

The Silent One wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:51 pm
Oberlus wrote:In general, we (you, I and others) have expressed their interest on making military conquest affect species opinion (you know, warlikers and pacifists, Species Values, etc.).
Apologies for repeating myself, but I really think values are something that should be connected to emperors/empires. I personally do not see gameplay value in species-empire relations, and so far there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive explanation how and why it will be fun. My opinion is that it will only complicate the game.

With this, I will stop to bother you and leave you with your discussion, but unless somehow I'm hit by some inspiration, let me express clearly that I will not support SER.
I think the fun of having species like or dislike empires (species-empire relations mediated by species values, so that not all species like the same) comes from the extra strategies it can enable. That can be seen as "complicate the game", of course. It could also be use to balance stuff, like encouraging diplomatic strategies (that are missing from game right now). I think it is interesting to talk about this (here or in another thread, if labgnome prefers it).

User avatar
Oberlus
Cosmic Dragon
Posts: 2607
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:25 pm

Re: Species Opinion System Discussion

#33 Post by Oberlus » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:28 pm

labgnome wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:16 pm
...
I'm really confused about everything we've talked there. For example, how can you make different interpretations of mathematical equations? I'm sorry I can not figure it out by myself.
I think I shall focus on the tech tree :D

User avatar
labgnome
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Species Opinion System Discussion

#34 Post by labgnome » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:53 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:28 pm
labgnome wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:16 pm
...
I'm really confused about everything we've talked there. For example, how can you make different interpretations of mathematical equations? I'm sorry I can not figure it out by myself.
I think I shall focus on the tech tree :D
I think this was just the wrong time to bring this subject up. Personally I'd like to finish-up policies.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
labgnome
Small Juggernaut
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Re: Species Opinion System Discussion

#35 Post by labgnome » Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:13 pm

The Silent One wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:51 pm
Oberlus wrote:In general, we (you, I and others) have expressed their interest on making military conquest affect species opinion (you know, warlikers and pacifists, Species Values, etc.).
Apologies for repeating myself, but I really think values are something that should be connected to emperors/empires. I personally do not see gameplay value in species-empire relations, and so far there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive explanation how and why it will be fun. My opinion is that it will only complicate the game.

With this, I will stop to bother you and leave you with your discussion, but unless somehow I'm hit by some inspiration, let me express clearly that I will not support SER.
Species/empire relations adds immersion by making species different from each other. It can take things from the flavor-text into the actual gameplay. It can create interesting internal relations. It also makes holding your empire together something that you might need to be active about rather than something that passively "just happens". It makes your decision to bring a species into your empire a much more strategic choice. I can guess that you might not find any of this as fun, or interesting but know that other people find some or all of those things fun or interesting or both.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.

User avatar
Vezzra
Release Manager, Design
Posts: 5265
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:56 pm
Location: Sol III

Re: Species Opinion System Discussion

#36 Post by Vezzra » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:08 pm

As this thread is supposed to discuss a proposal about a species opinion system, and not about if there should be a species opinion mechanic at all, I've opened a thread to discuss and decide the latter in the Top Priority Game Design subforum.

Please continue discussing if we want a species opinion mechanic there, so the discussion here can concentrate on the proposal the thread has been created for.

User avatar
LienRag
Space Kraken
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 5:03 pm

Re: Species Opinion System Discussion

#37 Post by LienRag » Thu May 21, 2020 12:54 pm

Even though I liked the basic idea, I kept away from these topics since a first look at them felt like it's quite complex.

Well, now that I have read this one and some more, I can tell that it actually is complex...
I agree with half of the propositions even though they contradict each other, I don't understand some of the discussions (with a good intersection with the former affirmation), I don't know where some of you are going and apparently some of you don't want to go anywhere.

The only thing I can assert right now is that the Species-Empire Relations is indeed needed, for the reasons Vezzra exposed.

Oberlus' proposition to get them from an average of Planet-Empires Relations may be a good path of simplification, but I feel like they would still miss something though I can't point what exactly.

Anyway, one thing we can all agree it that their effects should not be boring.

Which, in my opinion, means that they should not be linear.

We should have situations where species suddenly begin to demand things from the Empire (obviously contradictory demands to make it fun) and let the player trying to cope with it while trying to not entirely derail his own strategy.

Obviously not completely at random lest FreeOrion becomes just a game of whack-a-mole, but still without the predictability of a spreadsheet.

And obviously, Influence should be important to manage these competing demands and the detrimental effects of not satisfying them, but it shouldn't be a simple and boring "pay this much to have that" (i.e. if your Furthest are unhappy about the war that's coming closer to their home, you can't just pay X influence and be set).

At this stage of my reflection, I think the best is to use two "currencies", Influence and Time, and to use them differently.
What I mean is that Influence would be able to buy you time, but only that : if your Gysaches are demanding you to stop the war, paying Influence will allow you to get a few more turns of stability to achieve strategic objectives before ending the war, but only that¹.
And once you have upset one of your species, only time can be the healer: each turn in which you meet this specie's requests and have policies that makes her happy, you get a rising chance of having it revert to a better appreciation of you.



¹ So I guess the best way to achieve that would be rising influence costs as long as a demand is not met.

Post Reply