Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

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Magnate
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#121 Post by Magnate »

Which is a shame 'cos it was gonna be a really interesting turn!!

So my thoughts so far from this game are:

1. I'm more convinced than ever that Robotic hulls are overpowered for their place in the early game. I think they should lose the fourth external slot, making them fast, tougher, regenerating versions of the basic large hull. That's still a good upgrade, but we would then move on more quickly to better hulls instead of sticking with them for nearly a hundred turns.

2. I'd really really like game 6 to have many more stars per player and take longer. (Incidentally there have only been two finished games of the previous four - the first two were abandoned because of bugs.)

3. Team games like this one tend to hover on a knife edge - this has been really really fun, but when it goes I think it will end quickly with one or other side conceding en masse. (Quite a lot depends on whether alleryn conquers the southeast!) I think on balance I prefer games with a diplomatic element, where alliances can be made and broken (i.e. only one winner).

4. Fighters have made shields pretty pointless. Nobody has bothered with anything beyond the defense grid. I think shields need to be cheaper - that's the main reason I'm not using them any more. Fighters are extremely cheap - free, even!

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Oberlus
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#122 Post by Oberlus »

It's back online now.

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swaq
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#123 Post by swaq »

Yeah, I feel the game is at the climax with something sure to give way in the next few turns.

1. I think I would prefer Robotic hulls to require more research points than to lose a slot. They are still pretty spendy compared to organic so once you get higher level armor I'm not sure they have as much of an advantage.
2. I think my main request for Game 6 would be less or no monsters. Really was a wet blanket on the start of the game.
3. I wish there was a way to ensure teams are contiguous in the galaxy. Me being sandwiched by o01eg and Magnate and my connection to JonCST being severed by TheSilentOne is not ideal for cooperating with my team mates. I am up for trying all different sorts of diplomacy settings though.
4. Fighters are great for a one time strike but lack follow-up after they have mostly been shot down. I do think shields (especially Defense Grid) are vastly overpriced for their benefit. Maybe shields could have a 33% effectiveness against fighters or something (i.e. Defense Grid would block 1 damage from each fighter attack)?

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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#124 Post by Magnate »

swaq wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:27 pmYeah, I feel the game is at the climax with something sure to give way in the next few turns.
Yeah I think that might be Fetu ...
1. I think I would prefer Robotic hulls to require more research points than to lose a slot. They are still pretty spendy compared to organic so once you get higher level armor I'm not sure they have as much of an advantage.
Hmm that's an interesting thought. I'd happily see them take twice as many RP and twice as many turns and then they'd be about right I think. But we'd need to buff the Energy Frigate with an extra slot, because at the moment it's just a faster weaker non-regenerating version of the Robotic, which takes aeons longer to build.
2. I think my main request for Game 6 would be less or no monsters. Really was a wet blanket on the start of the game.
I've given feedback on this before - the Low monsters setting is still about 5x too high, and needs to be changed (or we need to add a Very Low setting).
3. I wish there was a way to ensure teams are contiguous in the galaxy. Me being sandwiched by o01eg and Magnate and my connection to JonCST being severed by TheSilentOne is not ideal for cooperating with my team mates. I am up for trying all different sorts of diplomacy settings though.
Yeah this I suspect is in the same bucket as balancing starting regions a la Stellaris - I don't know the code but I think both are probably challenging.
4. Fighters are great for a one time strike but lack follow-up after they have mostly been shot down. I do think shields (especially Defense Grid) are vastly overpriced for their benefit. Maybe shields could have a 33% effectiveness against fighters or something (i.e. Defense Grid would block 1 damage from each fighter attack)?
That's another interesting idea. I think a simple quick fix is to move them down one - currently Defence Grid costs same as Laser, Deflector same as Plasma, etc. If Defence Grid cost same as mass driver and Deflector same as Laser, that would even it up a lot.

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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#125 Post by o01eg »

Magnate wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:01 pm
swaq wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:27 pm2. I think my main request for Game 6 would be less or no monsters. Really was a wet blanket on the start of the game.
I've given feedback on this before - the Low monsters setting is still about 5x too high, and needs to be changed (or we need to add a Very Low setting).
Yes, next game will get eigther Low or None monsters and specials.
Magnate wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:01 pm
swaq wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:27 pm3. I wish there was a way to ensure teams are contiguous in the galaxy. Me being sandwiched by o01eg and Magnate and my connection to JonCST being severed by TheSilentOne is not ideal for cooperating with my team mates. I am up for trying all different sorts of diplomacy settings though.
Yeah this I suspect is in the same bucket as balancing starting regions a la Stellaris - I don't know the code but I think both are probably challenging.
It's need someone who knows good python and universe generator script. In FreeCiv there indeed is option to place same team players together.
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#126 Post by The Silent One »

o01eg wrote: Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:26 pmIt's need someone who knows good python and universe generator script. In FreeCiv there indeed is option to place same team players together.
You mean Vezzra. :)
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#127 Post by Magnate »

Oh dear. I know this is going to sound like sour grapes, but I am afraid I'm a victim of https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/issues/2572

For me, every one of swaq's "freedom" class ships is showing with 2x "Ship Part Plasma Cannon +9.00"

I wondered why he hadn't upgraded his plasmas, having researched them so early

But this turn (75) combat log shows me that each Freedom is doing 15 damage to unshielded ships, so swaq clearly has Plasma Cannon III.

Please could alleryn, o01eg, TSO and JonCST post here to say what weapons swaq's Freedom ships appear to have this turn? My guess is that my team-mates will see my info (9.00) and swaq's team-mates will see his (15.00). If this is correct it would be good to add to the bug tracker. Interestingly it appears to be specific to plasma cannons, as I have never seen it in the cases of mass drivers or lasers.

I have gone back to check the combat log of turn 67 (to which I did not pay enough attention - because I won!) - that shows that the freedoms were doing 12 damage, so presumably swaq you have upgraded from Plasma 2 to Plasma 3 between 67 and 75?


Dammit. This wasn't so fatal in the last game because my client did show me Oberlus's upgraded weapons before we fought (and the situation was much less finely balanced). I think with the imminent loss of Hydros Beta and Fetu I'm ready to concede but I will consult my team-mates. I'm sorry gang.

I should add that this in no way detracts from my admiration for swaq's astonishingly good play.I have been outproducing you and outresearching you, and yet you still managed to threaten me on two fronts. I take my hat off to you!

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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#128 Post by o01eg »

Magnate wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:36 am Please could alleryn, o01eg, TSO and JonCST post here to say what weapons swaq's Freedom ships appear to have this turn? My guess is that my team-mates will see my info (9.00) and swaq's team-mates will see his (15.00). If this is correct it would be good to add to the bug tracker. Interestingly it appears to be specific to plasma cannons, as I have never seen it in the cases of mass drivers or lasers.
Yes, I see 9.00 for swaq's Freedom ships.
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#129 Post by The Silent One »

Same here, for plasma cannons as well as laser.
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#130 Post by Magnate »

The Silent One wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:48 am Same here, for plasma cannons as well as laser.
Ah but I think the laser info is correct, he said last night that hasn't researched Laser 4. I think somehow the bug is specific to plasma cannons.

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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#131 Post by Oberlus »

And yes, swaq teammates (at least this one) seem to see the correct values. I see 15 on his plasmas.

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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#132 Post by Magnate »

Ok thanks, I've updated the issue accordingly.

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swaq
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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#133 Post by swaq »

Magnate wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:36 am I have gone back to check the combat log of turn 67 (to which I did not pay enough attention - because I won!) - that shows that the freedoms were doing 12 damage, so presumably swaq you have upgraded from Plasma 2 to Plasma 3 between 67 and 75?
Looking back at the SitRep I researched Plasma 2 on turn 62 and Plasma 3 on turn 73. I believe I timed it such that I attacked the first turn Plasma 3 would have been in effect.
Magnate wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:36 am I should add that this in no way detracts from my admiration for swaq's astonishingly good play.I have been outproducing you and outresearching you, and yet you still managed to threaten me on two fronts. I take my hat off to you!
Thanks, I appreciate it. I feel like I've been bumbling quite a lot of things but it's been a lot of fun. I definitely have to consider my moves more carefully than when playing against the AI.

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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#134 Post by swaq »

Turn 76. There's been a double breakthrough! Magnate fleets took a critical blow from swaq empire's attempt to shift the Maginot Line, but then used a secret hidden starlane to slip past to counterstrike Hydros α. Will this guerrilla deployment behind enemy lines pay off? The bank of o01eg continues to consume ground in the lower left, cutting off supply lines in the swaq empire. Meanwhile the industrious alleryn has established aerial dominance over Fetū but was unable to invade the planets themselves. A second clash imminent and we can only hope that he can keep up the pressure. The stalemate continues between the worms and the weeds, with both sides content by glaring at the other across the single connecting starlane.

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Re: Fifth game of the multiplayer slow game server

#135 Post by Oberlus »

Magnate wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:05 pm Ok thanks, I've updated the issue accordingly.
Do you or one of your mates have researched plasma 2+? May this be related to MP settings to not show enemy techs you don't have?

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