Exobot Ideas

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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labgnome
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#16 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:09 pm Envirobrains... I don't know if I like the name, but I want them anyway. But as an species? Come up with something as good as what you've done for Harmoniliths and lets see :twisted:
I'm not completely attached to the name, so if you want to think of another name feel free.

Okay, here's some fluff for you:
Envirobrains exist to think. Individually these living computers can perform countless calculations, and are ideal for theoretical research. Together, when suspended in a fluid medium, they create a natural neural network that amplifies their capabilities. This not only amplifies their raw computational powers but also allows them to approach problems unprecedented ways. This makes them a vital component to the scientific advancement of your empire.

Now I just need to work on icons for them...
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JonCST
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#17 Post by JonCST »

To me, the key thing about Exobots is that they enable colonizing asteroids. This is a bonus for production, because of the microgravity tech, and is the main reason for researching them rather than conquering a species which covers the barren/radiated/inferno niche when my "primary" species can't live in those "hostile three". If one is a replicon, asteroids are about the only reason i can see to research them.

I could see them being nerfed to fill the role the Sly play on gas giants, but for asteroids: uniquely adapted to the environment, and suffering terrible penalties in all others. If that happens, perhaps they should be quicker to research, rather than after Adaptive Automation.

I'm not sure it makes sense to prevent other robotic species from colonizing asteroids.

It might also make sense to allow Exobots to colonize gas giants.

I guess it depends on whether you want Exobots to be "allow your empire to occupy planets your primary species can't", or "fill an ecological niche no other species can"?

If the former, it would make more sense to me to make 'Bots reflect the preferences of the the species which created the outpost/colony ship which lead to the 'Bot colony, but with an extra planet type on each side of the ring. For example, Human- developed Bots would live better than Humans on Toxic and Barren, and improve around the ring as habitability tech is researched.

Jon

PS: As far as Exobots doing research, i figure it's like the SETI-at-Home thing, with their spare cycles used in the background to do distributed computing. Exobots have actual AI, rather than just Nascent, after all.

J.

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labgnome
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#18 Post by labgnome »

So here are some icons I made-up for the harmonolith and envirobrian.
goodvibes ;)
goodvibes ;)
harmonilith.png (2.53 KiB) Viewed 6473 times
thinking...
thinking...
envirobrain.png (4.38 KiB) Viewed 6473 times
Hopefully I am not jumping the gun here.

I also have art for "old style" exobots.
a classic
a classic
exobot.png (7.21 KiB) Viewed 6473 times
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labgnome
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#19 Post by labgnome »

JonCST wrote: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:03 pm To me, the key thing about Exobots is that they enable colonizing asteroids. This is a bonus for production, because of the microgravity tech, and is the main reason for researching them rather than conquering a species which covers the barren/radiated/inferno niche when my "primary" species can't live in those "hostile three". If one is a replicon, asteroids are about the only reason i can see to research them.
Even them getting asteroids isn't that big of a bonus, they get them as a poor environment, any species can take advantage of asteroid hulls, and they can't even benefit from the crystals special.
I could see them being nerfed to fill the role the Sly play on gas giants, but for asteroids: uniquely adapted to the environment, and suffering terrible penalties in all others. If that happens, perhaps they should be quicker to research, rather than after Adaptive Automation.
Separating out asteroid colonization is something I am considering. Although it doesn't jibe as much with the direction that this topic seems to be going in with Harmonoliths and Envirobrains (I really need to think of another name for them). Currently what I am thinking is that
I'm not sure it makes sense to prevent other robotic species from colonizing asteroids.
Enviromental preference and metabolism type are completely separated, so for now unless habitability is changed that's just the way the system is.
It might also make sense to allow Exobots to colonize gas giants.
That is a possibility. However giving them gas giants is a big bonus. They are the most abundant plant type and all huge sized.
I guess it depends on whether you want Exobots to be "allow your empire to occupy planets your primary species can't", or "fill an ecological niche no other species can"?
Why not both?
If the former, it would make more sense to me to make 'Bots reflect the preferences of the the species which created the outpost/colony ship which lead to the 'Bot colony, but with an extra planet type on each side of the ring. For example, Human- developed Bots would live better than Humans on Toxic and Barren, and improve around the ring as habitability tech is researched.
That's what I've been thinking, this proposal is just a concept to hash-out what that idea means in terms of gameplay.
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JonCST
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#20 Post by JonCST »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:31 am
[...]
Even them getting asteroids isn't that big of a bonus, they get them as a poor environment, any species can take advantage of asteroid hulls, [...]
While it's true they get them as a poor environment, they still get them, and the microgravity tech gives them flat production bonuses. Late game, asteroid production adds up. Might make more difference to me, since i tend to play smaller universes.

Gaining production from outposts, as i believe i've seen discussed, would eliminate some of the motivation to research 'Bots.

J

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Re: Exobot Ideas

#21 Post by labgnome »

JonCST wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:51 am While it's true they get them as a poor environment, they still get them, and the microgravity tech gives them flat production bonuses. Late game, asteroid production adds up. Might make more difference to me, since i tend to play smaller universes.
Universe size is definitely going to impact how useful Exobots getting asteroids will be.
Gaining production from outposts, as i believe i've seen discussed, would eliminate some of the motivation to research 'Bots.
Personally I'm not interested in eliminating motivation to research Exobots, so much as make the underlying idea of more utility to more different starting species. With giving Harmonoliths a focus on influence and Envirobrains a focus on research, this also opens-up the idea of artificial races to not just more environment types, but also more play-styles.

I'm personally not a fan of production at outposts, as I think the effort and time expended to establish colonies is important, so I would rather see more options for artificial races. But that's just me.
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Oberlus
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#22 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:04 pmUniverse size is definitely going to impact how useful Exobots getting asteroids will be.
I don't think so. The ratio of asteroid to planets is the same for same galaxy age: aprox. 14%-15% or the any planet will be an asteroid belt. The only parameter that affect that ratio, indirectly, is galaxy age: older galaxies have more neutron and black stars, which happen to have a slightly greater frequency of appearance for asteroid belts. Also, lower density galaxies have less planets per system and hence more of the systems that happen to have asteroids will have have few or no other planets to benefit from the +5 PPs.
So, regardless of the galaxy size, Exobots will allow you an increase of production of aprox. +10% to 15%. Less if most of your species are good or better at industry.

labgnome wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:04 pmI'm personally not a fan of production at outposts, as I think the effort and time expended to establish colonies is important, so I would rather see more options for artificial races. But that's just me.
You should change your mind regarding your fanship. A flat bonus to production at outposts (say +2), is not going to remove any will to colonise any planet, because colonies have populations and get more flat bonuses and all the pop-based bonuses, which account for the bast majority of production you get from a planet.
Also, if you consider that bonus will be granted by only one tech branch and, if necessary for balance, take a policy slot, I don't see why anyone would not welcome a new expansion strategy that would go very well with wide empires (and not forgetting there will be plenty of solutions for tall empires).

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Re: Exobot Ideas

#23 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:59 pm
labgnome wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:04 pmUniverse size is definitely going to impact how useful Exobots getting asteroids will be.
I don't think so. The ratio of asteroid to planets is the same for same galaxy age: aprox. 14%-15% or the any planet will be an asteroid belt. The only parameter that affect that ratio, indirectly, is galaxy age: older galaxies have more neutron and black stars, which happen to have a slightly greater frequency of appearance for asteroid belts. Also, lower density galaxies have less planets per system and hence more of the systems that happen to have asteroids will have have few or no other planets to benefit from the +5 PPs.
So, regardless of the galaxy size, Exobots will allow you an increase of production of aprox. +10% to 15%. Less if most of your species are good or better at industry.
You're right about that. I just notice it less in the large roomy galaxies I like to play in. Plus going for cray and artificial planets is another way
You should change your mind regarding your fanship. A flat bonus to production at outposts (say +2), is not going to remove any will to colonise any planet, because colonies have populations and get more flat bonuses and all the pop-based bonuses, which account for the bast majority of production you get from a planet.
Also, if you consider that bonus will be granted by only one tech branch and, if necessary for balance, take a policy slot, I don't see why anyone would not welcome a new expansion strategy that would go very well with wide empires (and not forgetting there will be plenty of solutions for tall empires).
I mean I don't hate the idea as much as I hated the idea for a stockpile, but I don't think I will ever really be a fan of it. If you really like the idea I'd ask that you start a separate topic, as I'd like to stay on the subject of artificial species here. There are still some things to work out. Like weather or not they will also be "upgradeable", and weather or not all/any of them get asteroids or gas giants, and how we want to do that.

BTW: what do you think of "Neurobrians" or "Neuraloids" for the organic/research artificial species name?
Also: should I work more on their fluff? I can if I need to.
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JonCST
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#24 Post by JonCST »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:59 pm [...] The ratio of asteroid to planets is the same for same galaxy age: aprox. 14%-15% or the any planet will be an asteroid belt.
All i meant was that in a smaller universe, one runs out of non-asteroid planets to colonize sooner, because there's just fewer planets total, not that the percentages change. 85% of 100 things is a smaller amount than 85% of 200 things.

The other thing about "Exobots" (besides that they _can_ live on asteroids), is that anyone can get them, via research. That of course makes them different from "naturally occurring" species (except maybe revived extinct species). I'm a bit unclear if the new variants you're planning will be researched on tech levels, or if they're more "naturally occurring" robotic species.

If they are to be researched, i could see a basic exobot at level one, which does production, and then other tech levels enabling think-bots for research etc. for the various meters. I'm not sure if they should be _species_, or if they should be buildings, though. Maybe build able only at robotic species colonies?

J.

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Re: Exobot Ideas

#25 Post by labgnome »

JonCST wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pmThe other thing about "Exobots" (besides that they _can_ live on asteroids), is that anyone can get them, via research. That of course makes them different from "naturally occurring" species (except maybe revived extinct species). I'm a bit unclear if the new variants you're planning will be researched on tech levels, or if they're more "naturally occurring" robotic species.
They would be researched. So in theory everyone could get them, but they would be in different parts of the tech tree, so you wouldn't be going for all of them at once.
If they are to be researched, i could see a basic exobot at level one, which does production, and then other tech levels enabling think-bots for research etc.

They would be in different parts of the tech tree, but probably at the same tier. They also would be different metabolisms. So more like giant brains and singing crystals. At least in their current incarnations.
for the various meters. I'm not sure if they should be _species_, or if they should be buildings, though. Maybe build able only at robotic species colonies?
What do you mean by this?
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#26 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:59 pmEnvirobrains exist to think. Individually these living computers can perform countless calculations, and are ideal for theoretical research. Together, when suspended in a fluid medium, they create a natural neural network that amplifies their capabilities. This not only amplifies their raw computational powers but also allows them to approach problems unprecedented ways. This makes them a vital component to the scientific advancement of your empire.
Now I like the name, Envirobrains.

I have in my works for the new tech tree some stuff about "Neural Computing", a tech for Biotec to boost research. My first idea was to make them a flat bonus, like the Nascent AI, with the fluff that once researched the tech you get new ways of autonomous computing on all your planets. And now I think Envirobrains could be a natural development from that earlier tech: first you get the tech for instrumental brains, later you get the tech for a new instrumental species focused on research. I do like it.
So I do like he idea of threefour exobot variants: productionbots, researchbots, influencebots and warbots (this last one probably not a species, just the tech to be able to mount bot-troop pods in your ships). The three variants that yo sketched, with different preferred environments, Exobots (barren), Envirobrains (ocean) and Harmoniliths (???), does please my desire for asymmetry.

I also thought of new versions of the habitability techs in the Growth branch, and got a version of Xeno. Hybridisation that improves habitability on hostile and poor planets for all your species for each different environment preference you add to your empire (the details of that mechanic and whether it is actually possible or a good idea aren't clear). And thus the Enviro(ment)brain name lighten up a bulb in my head: a tech (that maybe enables a building or policy) that does something about improving environmental tolerance or even improving the environment (i.e. terraforming). Again, just ideas, not sure if good ones.

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Re: Exobot Ideas

#27 Post by Oberlus »

JonCST wrote: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pmAll i meant was that in a smaller universe, one runs out of non-asteroid planets to colonize sooner, because there's just fewer planets total, not that the percentages change. 85% of 100 things is a smaller amount than 85% of 200 things.
My statement remains the same. The importance of Exobots in relation to the galaxy size is mostly constant. When you have no more (non-asteroid) planets to colonise, you have enemies at the gates and you need to focus on military production (keep expanding, but devote less resources to that), and how much resources you need to devote are also relative to the galaxy size: smaller sizes means smaller enemy empires and hence similar ratios of planets set to production, production devoted to ships, etc. (for a given gameplay style and starting conditions), and so the importance of colonising with exobots the remaining asteroid belts stay de same regardless of the absolute number of aseroid belts.

Also, I never wait untill all planets are colonised before colonising asteroid belts with exobots. If there where asteroid belts to colonise that I could see, I would be getting exobots ASAP (also because you must get adaptive automation ASAP, so Exobots are not that much of an extra effort at that point). And hence I don't understand that thing about "run out of non-asteroid planets to colonize". I run out of both planets and asteroid belts at the same rate.

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Re: Exobot Ideas

#28 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:40 amSo I do like he idea of threefour exobot variants: productionbots, researchbots, influencebots and warbots (this last one probably not a species, just the tech to be able to mount bot-troop pods in your ships). The three variants that yo sketched, with different preferred environments, Exobots (barren), Envirobrains (ocean) and Harmoniliths (???), does please my desire for asymmetry.
So my thought on environmental preferences:

Exobots
  • Adequate: Barren, Radiated, Inferno
  • Poor: Tundra, Toxic, Asteroid, *Gas Giant
  • Hostile: Swamp, Ocean, Terran, Desert
Envirobrains
  • Adequate: Toxic, Swamp, Ocean, *Gas Giant
  • Poor: Inferno, Terran
  • Hostile: Desert, Tundra, Barren, Inferno, Asteroid
Harmonoliths
  • Adequate: Terran, Desert, Tundra, Asteroid
  • Poor: Ocean, Barren
  • Hostile: Radiated, Inferno, Toxic, Swamp, *Gas Giant
*I consider gas giant habitability optional, but an idea that interests me. Perhaps they could be single-focus species to balance-out getting gas-giants.


They each get a third of the habitability wheel as adequate, that way if you do spec into all three you do get all planet types as adequate for artificial species. My logic is to try to keep some asymetry between them by making asteroid belts of different habitability to them. Harmoniliths get asteroids as adequate to take full advantage of the crystals special. Therefore Envirobrains get asteroids as hostile instead.
I also thought of new versions of the habitability techs in the Growth branch, and got a version of Xeno. Hybridisation that improves habitability on hostile and poor planets for all your species for each different environment preference you add to your empire (the details of that mechanic and whether it is actually possible or a good idea aren't clear). And thus the Enviro(ment)brain name lighten up a bulb in my head: a tech (that maybe enables a building or policy) that does something about improving environmental tolerance or even improving the environment (i.e. terraforming). Again, just ideas, not sure if good ones.
Maybe the artificial species can be upgraded in different ways. So maybe the Envirobrain upgrade gets them more environments? Maybe other species start off at bad or average for their special focus, and the upgraded versions get better, while Envirobrains start off better, but just get access to more environments?
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Re: Exobot Ideas

#29 Post by Oberlus »

Three adequate planet environments in addition to adequate in GG or asteroid... I don't like that they get overall very good habitability prospects when compared to most playable species. Bots should be patches, good for filling gaps (including huge gaps when your starting species is of the opposite environment and also narrow tolerance with very few good planets around), but this is excessive, IMO.

I think:
- Harmoniliths: preferred Inferno-Toxic-Ocean (adequate), GGs hostile and no asteroids.
- Envirobrains: preferred Swamp-Ocean-Terran (adequate), no GGs and no asteroids.
- Exobots: preferred Tundra-Barren-Irradiated, no GGs and asteroids poor.

I don't understand that "take full advantage of the crystal special" thingy. You put whatever you want in the asteroid belt (well, Exobots or Fulver), set them to growth focus, and you get a population boost for all your lithic species in your whole supply-connected empire, which is what I consider the best outcome. Moreover, if harmoniliths aren't going to do industry focus, they can't really take full advantage of the crystals when not set to growth.
labgnome wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:12 pmMaybe the artificial species can be upgraded in different ways. So maybe the Envirobrain upgrade gets them more environments? Maybe other species start off at bad or average for their special focus, and the upgraded versions get better, while Envirobrains start off better, but just get access to more environments?
I love this idea.

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Re: Exobot Ideas

#30 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:39 am Three adequate planet environments in addition to adequate in GG or asteroid... I don't like that they get overall very good habitability prospects when compared to most playable species. Bots should be patches, good for filling gaps (including huge gaps when your starting species is of the opposite environment and also narrow tolerance with very few good planets around), but this is excessive, IMO.
Well, we are still brainstorming. I think we still have a lot of room to work-out these ideas.

- Harmoniliths: preferred Inferno-Toxic-Ocean (adequate), GGs hostile and no asteroids.
Although I'm not completely opposed to a "broken-up" habitability preference, especially for an artificial species, I feel like I need to ask your reasoning here. Why do none of them get desert preference? Why do two of them get ocean? Why do Harmonliths (the living crystals) get gas giants?

- Envirobrains: preferred Swamp-Ocean-Terran (adequate), no GGs and no asteroids.
Personally if any of single one the artificial species was going to get gas-giants I'd give it to the envirobrains, myself.

- Exobots: preferred Tundra-Barren-Irradiated, no GGs and asteroids poor.
Unless there has been a change in recent test versions, Exobots get Barren-Radiated-Inferno, are you proposing we change their preference?

Personally I'd prefer giving them each 1/3 of the habitability wheel, I would also prefer that either all of them get access to gas-giants or none of them do, as gas-giant size and abundance is a pretty big advantage. I don't want any one of them to be a must-have over the others.

I don't understand that "take full advantage of the crystal special" thingy. You put whatever you want in the asteroid belt (well, Exobots or Fulver), set them to growth focus, and you get a population boost for all your lithic species in your whole supply-connected empire, which is what I consider the best outcome. Moreover, if harmoniliths aren't going to do industry focus, they can't really take full advantage of the crystals when not set to growth.
Fulver get narrow tundra environmental preference, not asteroid belts. Exobots are robotic not lithic. If only one artificial species is going to get asteroids, at any habitability, it should be Harmonliths, so that can take advantage of the growth focus. We also haven't established weather or not Harmonoliths will or won't have industry focus. If they need it they should get it. Maybe as an upgrade. Right now no-one can take advantage of them as a growth special.

labgnome wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:12 pmMaybe the artificial species can be upgraded in different ways. So maybe the Envirobrain upgrade gets them more environments? Maybe other species start off at bad or average for their special focus, and the upgraded versions get better, while Envirobrains start off better, but just get access to more environments?
I love this idea.
So upgrades are in. I should ask at what tier are you planning on placing the artificial species? We should figure out if they are going to be early-game (tier 1 or 2) or mid-game (tier 3 or 4). That way I know weather or not to give them one or two upgraded versions.
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