Fighter targetting poll

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

Moderator: Oberlus

Choose your targets

Poll ended at Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:48 pm

Bombers should target ships first
7
22%
Bombers should target fighters if there are no ships
4
13%
Interceptors should target Bombers first
7
22%
Interceptors should target ships if there are no fighters
6
19%
Fighters should target enemy ships with flak first
3
9%
Fighters should target enemy fighters first
3
9%
The default number of combat rounds should be increased from 3 to 4
2
6%
 
Total votes: 32

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Ophiuchus
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Fighter targetting poll

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

Jaumito wrote: Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:33 am this thread is born from another discussion about the relevance of having several fighter types.

The consensus then was that, at the moment, interceptors and bombers are rather underwhelming to say the least. One proposed solution was to introduce target priorities for all fighter types, to allow for more, and more interesting, ship design choices and strategic decisions.
Combat targeting was merged into master (PR-2330) and so i'll poll for opinions how to make the different types of fighters more distinct.
(TODO: insert link to thread where we discuss that currently fighter/bomber/interceptor distinction makes no sense)

This is what the implementation does currently.
  • Flak parts target space boats
  • Interceptor fighters target space boats
  • Bomber and Fighter fighters target ships and space boats
  • It is possible to define target 'tiers', shooting 'first' at one kind of preferred target and fall back to a secondary tier of targets if there are no preferred targets in the combat
'Space boat' here means any of the different fighter types (Interceptor/Bomber/Fighter).
Note that flak parts are very efficient; I guess

The way I imagine the types to work in a broad sense:
  • Bombers hunt space ships
  • Interceptors try to stop them by shooting down bombers and being cannon fodder
  • Fighters try to achieve supremacy regarding to space boats; e.g. eradicating other boats and destroying anti-boat ships (aka ships containing Flak parts)
Explanations for the poll options (choose as many as you like; all; none)
  • Bombers should target ships first: Bomber boats will shoot only at enemy ships (if there are any)
  • Bombers should target fighters if there are no ships: Bombers will shoot at space boats if there are no enemy space ships. If you do not choose this you want that Bombers can not attack enemy space boats
  • Interceptors should target Bombers first: Interceptors attack only Bombers (if there are any) and shoot at any type of space boat if there are no enemy Bombers
  • Interceptors should target ships if there are no fighters: Interceptors will shoot at space ships if there are no enemy space boats. If you do not choose this you want that Interceptors can not attack enemy space ships.
  • Fighters should target enemy ships with flak first: Fighters attack enemy ships which contain the Flak cannon part if there are any (== ships with SR_WEAPON_0_1 parts are first tier targets). If you do not choose this you do not want flak parts to be part of the targeting condition.
  • Fighters should target enemy boats first: Fighters attack enemy boats if there are any (== boats are first tier targets). If you do not choose this you want ships and fighters to be on the same target tier.
  • The default number of combat rounds should be increased from 3 to 4: Currently there are three combat rounds, with the first round being used to launch space boats leaving only two rounds for boat combat. If we increase this to four combat rounds, there is more time for flak and ships to resolve boat combat. Also currently adding extra hangars makes little sense (because those boats will only fight for a single round), with four combat rounds those will fight two for rounds.
Note that Fighters target enemy ships and fighters in the secondary tier.

After the poll is finished next Monday I will implement the mostly chosen options as PR.
I suggest that we merge it into master and get some playing experience with it.

edit1: add Jaumito quote
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oh i forgot to ask if you guys want space marines troop part :twisted:

Having space marines on board has two effects:
  • adds a first tier to the target condition, which makes the ships' weapons attack enemy troop ships (== ships which contain troop parts)
  • after the normal combat marines try to enter enemy troop ships, decreasing troop capacity of the enemy ship by the space marines troop capacity
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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#3 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:58 pmOh i forgot to ask if you guys want space marines troop part :twisted:

Having space marines on board has two effects:
  • adds a first tier to the target condition, which makes the ships' weapons attack enemy troop ships (== ships which contain troop parts)
  • after the normal combat marines try to enter enemy troop ships, decreasing troop capacity of the enemy ship by the space marines troop capacity
I think I don't get this part :)
If I can't take control of enemy ships (much preferably enemy warships) I don't see the point.
To reduce the number or troops in enemy troop ships I rather shoot those defenseless ships down than pit my own marines against them.
The only use I see for marine parts is what we got in MoO2: you can use them to board and seize enemy ships and to defend against such tactics. Is that an option? Invading ships instead of planets.

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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:18 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:58 pm Having space marines on board has ...
I think I don't get this part :)
If I can't take control of enemy ships (much preferably enemy warships) I don't see the point.
To reduce the number or troops in enemy troop ships I rather shoot those defenseless ships down than pit my own marines against them.
My marines do both ;)
The troop reduction would work also against high structure troop ships and they dont take up weapon slots (and could be comparatively cheap).
So pit your stealthed marines in organic ships against enemy heavy asteroid troop ships?
Not sure how interesting the idea is though ;)
Oberlus wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:18 pm The only use I see for marine parts is what we got in MoO2: you can use them to board and seize enemy ships and to defend against such tactics. Is that an option? Invading ships instead of planets.
I dont know how that worked in MoO2, but taking over (randomly chosen?) ships is scriptable in principle.
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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#5 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pmthey dont take up weapon slots (and could be comparatively cheap).
I guess I need to know all the details. Wouldn't it take up a "launch bay" of a sort? My first idea after reading "marine troops part" was this:
- Works similar as a fighter weapon.
- To have marines on board, you need an internal part. Maybe there should be a base number of marines on board for every hull (to represent the crew resistance to boarding).
- This marines fight back any intruding enemy marine, using same mechanics than planetary invasion: numbers win.
- To be able to "shoot" marines at other ships you need an specific launch bay. It launches one (or two with heavy troops refinement) marine pods. This marine pods should be treated as bomber fighters (they are anti-capital ship weapons, like bombers).
- Marine pods (a kind of fighter) can target ships (preferably warships). If they are not taken down on combat round 2, they "hit" on target at the end of round 2, and if the intruders win, the ship is out of combat during round 3 (and subsecuent, if any) and the ship will be controlled by the invading marines' Empire next turn.
Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pmThe troop reduction would work also against high structure troop ships
[...]
So pit your stealthed marines in organic ships against enemy heavy asteroid troop ships?
Not sure how interesting the idea is though ;)
I still don't find it interesting.

Also, what happens to a troop ship whose troop capacity has been zeroed by enemy marines? It is an empty troop ship now and you can take it back to a friendly colony for troop refill or is it destroyed?

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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#6 Post by Oberlus »

Regarding the targetting options for fighters, what I would like most is to give value to bombers and interceptors in their own niches against the (currently very good) multi-purpose fighter.
So I would make fighter have no targetting rules, interceptor target all kind of space boats (if none, then also ships), and bomber all kind of enemy ships (if none, then also space boats). Also increase bomber damage at the higher level techs.

And I encourage you all to consider changing the name of the generic category from "fighters"/"space boats" to "drones". Much less confusion.

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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:50 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:18 pmthey dont take up weapon slots (and could be comparatively cheap).
I guess I need to know all the details. Wouldn't it take up a "launch bay" of a sort?
I wanted to make it internal/external part like normal troops and simply attach a post-combat effect.

Mixing it with space combat mechanics like launch bays is not possible currently. We would need to make effects possible during combat, probably being able to query events; sth like hitEffects (or something like combatEffects with effectgroups with something like activation conditions where you can filter events "got_hit", "hits").

I think empty troop ships should be able to refill spending one turn out of combat, supply-connected to a planet of the ships species.
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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#8 Post by Oberlus »

In that case (not messing with combat mechanics, just post-combat effect)...
The killing of enemy troopers on ships is something that I just don't get it. I don't see the benefit.

Regarding the seizing of ships (to control them), what about this (a complex post-combat effect):
- If there are enemy ships alive after combat and allied marine troop parts, calculate some probabilities of board-success for each marine part based on the numbers of enemy functioning flaks/interceptors and the number of allied marine troop parts in the system, and roll a dice for each one to see if it hits, and in that case confront onboard enemy crew+marines against boarding marines in a planet-invasion like combat.
But I don't think that is possible, and it would certainly be better to adapt combat mechanics instead.

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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:36 pm Regarding the seizing of ships (to control them), what about this (a complex post-combat effect):

- If there are enemy ships alive after combat and allied marine troop parts, calculate some probabilities of board-success for each marine part based on the numbers of enemy functioning flaks/interceptors and the number of allied marine troop parts in the system, and roll a dice for each one to see if it hits, and in that case confront onboard enemy crew+marines against boarding marines in a planet-invasion like combat.
But I don't think that is possible, and it would certainly be better to adapt combat mechanics instead.
I think you are right, if the post-combat effect would get that complex it makes more sense to reuse the combat mechanics because else one would have to reimplement a lot of of combat mechanics. Adding effects on hitting would not be very big and would allow a lot of things to be implemented. I was once entertaining the idea of arcade-like monsters which act differently in the progression of combat (the arcade monsters would had usually a scripted sequence of moves/firing weapons) and would be more complex mini-puzzles (so it would be possible to take them out with low-cost if you do the right ship/fleet design; and yes the AI would already know the answers).
E.g. one such monster could start with high shields, spawning some kind of fighters; as soon as there are fighters around it drops the shield partly and charges the big gun. If all its fighters are down, it fires the big gun. If there are more combat bouts, restart the cycle. I am sure you see a different ways of approaching this thingy. (This specific monster would actually not need extra effects)

For the marines I guess i would prefer rather a subduing than seizing effect: if a marine fighter hits, the target gets a ENEMY_ON_BOARD tag which prevents its weapons from shooting in that combat or simply setting the weapons' damage to zero instead. This would be cleaned before the next combat happens.

What i would like about seizing: it would be one way to have access to higher-tech than one currently has.

What i would hate about seizing: probably too randonmly powerful. But i do not have experience about such effects, so i may be wrong here.

And now something completely different: The poll is closed and i started implementing in
TopmostMatchesCondition branch / PR#2384.

I will implement the options with 4 or more votes

Code: Select all

// Bombers and heavy Bombers
combatTargets = And [
        [[COMBAT_TARGETS_VISIBLE_ENEMY]]
        OrderedAlternativesOf [
            [[COMBAT_TARGETS_NOT_DESTROYED_SHIP]]
            Fighter
        ]
]

Code: Select all

combatTargets = And [                             // Interceptors
        [[COMBAT_TARGETS_VISIBLE_ENEMY]]          // Consider only visible enemies as target
        OrderedAlternativesOf [
            And [                                 // Target Bombers and Heavy Bombers first
                Fighter
                Or [
                   DesignHasPart name = "FT_HANGAR_3"
                   DesignHasPart name = "FT_HANGAR_4"
                ]
            ]
            Fighter
            [[COMBAT_TARGETS_NOT_DESTROYED_SHIP]] // If no fighters: target enemy ships
        ]
    ]
I do not see a way to target bombers directly currently(possible since edit 3) and more importantly the TopmostMatches condition does not work yet. I asked for help by the others about implementing conditions in the PR#2384.(working since edit 2)
I came up with targeting the enemy fighters with the highest attack value using MaximumNumberOf. The number of targets is determined by the count of own interceptors in that battle multiplied with a spread factor of 1.2. This means if you have 10 interceptors in battle, all enemy fighters are sorted by their attack value and the topmost 12 enemy fighters will be used for the random choice of a target. This means that interceptors will probably will waste few shots and probably shoot down quite a number of the most dangerous enemies. If there are no enemy fighters left, enemy ships are targeted using the new OrderedAlternativesOf condition.(dropped since edit 3)

Using MaximumNumberOf did not work as there is no way to Count your own fighters in battle (see Issue #2394).

So i extended DesignHasPart to support fighters and target bombers and heavy bombers directly.
I am pretty sure that interceptors should also target fighter fighters, but will see after playtesting feedback.

edit1: rename TopmostMatches -> OrderedAlternativesOf

edit2: specify bomber targetting

edit3: had to change implementation away from MaximumNumberOf because of Issue #2394
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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#10 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:37 pmTargeting is IMHO finished(?).
We still lack combat targetting parts to make direct damage weapons to target enemy ships first, right?
I think that is mandatory to make fighters not OP.

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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:46 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:37 pmTargeting is IMHO finished(?).
We still lack combat targetting parts to make direct damage weapons to target enemy ships first, right?
I think that is mandatory to make fighters not OP.
I am not under the impression that fighters are OP. I think using interceptors as cannon fodder is legitimate. Bring some flak and your own fighters as counter.

Playtesting feedback anyone else?
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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:07 pmI am not under the impression that fighters are OP. I think using interceptors as cannon fodder is legitimate. Bring some flak and your own fighters as counter.
That's why they are OP: you can't expect to take the lead by just using direct damage weapons, flaks and shields. You do need to have drones to effectively counter drones. Drones are a must, flaks are not (rest of weapons are a must just because you need them to take down planetary shields).

More insight on this:

For hulls with only one internal slot (say robo hull), you must go for fighters. Going for shields will be counterproductive. Even mixed fleets (some with a fighter or bomber hangar, some with a shield), are subpar against an enemy full-bomber/fighter fleet with same cost.

Also, as I remember it, the whole targetting priorities discussion started because people (I included) was discontent with your big guns (late game death ray) shooting down irrelevant interceptors.

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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

Ok, one suggestion for battle scanner parts:

Backend-changes necessary: new part class in FOCS, corresponding parser, part type in c++, fetch/remember the target condition and compose it in battle

For composing the target condition I think the weapon/hangar parts are expressing hard constraints (like Flak can only hit fighters) and broad fallbacks (instead of not shooting at all, Bombers will target fighters if there are no ships).
Battle scanner parts are expressing preferences on top of that (e.g. shoot at armed ships) and if they fail the weapon will hit any of the targets.
So the battle scanner conditions are applied after the weapon/hangar conditions.

Contents:
  • Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = Armed
  • Efficient Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = Structure > 30
  • Policy Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = depends on chosen battle policy (Troop-and-Colony-and-Outpost-ships, Armed, Planet, Ships-with-Flak)
  • Sniper Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = ship with highest structure
No idea about tech tree and costs.
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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#14 Post by Oberlus »

Great.
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:47 pmEfficient Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = Structure > 30
The 30, could it be dependent on the weapon's damage-per-shothit, DPH? So that different weapons of the same ship have different thresholds (or weapons that get upgraded), because that 30 can make sense for a late game death ray but not for lasers, and a 10 could make sense for late game lasers and early plasmas but not for death rays, etc.
Anyways, this is tricky. In combat, the best result will come always from eliminating as many as possible armed enemies on each bout. This means that ignoring ships with structure < X at the start of a bout (and spreading the shots only among the the rest of ships) can make you get more shots, since you are sparing the lives of the ships in worst condition (that have full weapon damage anyway) to focus on the ones that can withstand more damage before dying. Inverting the condition (target structure < X) solves that but creates the opposite problem: you turn badly injured ships into damage soakers for the bout they're still alive.

Hmmm...
How does combat targetting system treat the different shots of one faction in one bout? Is the target acquisition simultaneous, without one ship considering who is aiming at the other ships? Or is it somehow sequential and the second ship takes into account the results of the first ship's shots?
If it is the former, some bouts could get rather odd and inconsistent results, when the there are only a few (or just one) preferred target and the rest of enemies are does not cualify, so ALL your shots on that bout gets concentrated on the few preferred targets, and the rest of enemies are effectivelly immune for that bout.

This undesired situation can arise any time we divide possible targets in distinct groups, if target acquisition is simultaneous. Except for "armed ships first": it is hardly a problem to finish the carriers before the fighters.
A solution/paliative would be to make the target acquisition slightly stochastic: allow targetting unpreferred enemies but favour the preferred ones, with probabilities depending on the number of targets on each group, so that if preferred targets are 1, second targets are 9, and targetting policy give 2x more probabilities to preferred target, you get 2/11 chance to target the freferred one and 9/11 to target one of the ships in the second group.
Policy Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = depends on chosen battle policy (Troop-and-Colony-and-Outpost-ships, Armed, Planet, Ships-with-Flak)
Having such mechanic int the backend would be great for player customisation, but it might be too complex or require too much player attention for current FO standards.
On the other hand, if this targetting policies are scripted in computer parts, like the others, that could work just fine. A player would be designing his fleets with this in mind. Some of the ships would be trooper-snipers, some would be sniper-sniper (target ships with high damage output first).
Sniper Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = ship with highest structure
As with the Efficient Battle Scanner, if targetting it is simultaneous, the Sniper Battle Scanner would work awfully, concentrating all shots of each bout in a single target (the one with maximum structure), or maybe in the subset of the ships with maximum structure, and thus allowing for a massive damage soak. This case this would happen more often that with the other targetting parts.

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Re: Fighter targetting poll

#15 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:03 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:47 pmEfficient Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = Structure > 30
The 30, could it be dependent on the weapon's damage-per-shothit, DPH?
damage-per-shot is not possible as you can not query the currently shot (currently). if there is just one kind of weapon one could try to guess this in an ugly way.
damage-per-hit is even more far off - building on damage-per-shot either one has to simulate the calculation (based on targets shield value) or probably restructure targetting and damage calculation quite a bit in the backend.

Much easier: different battle scanner parts for certain structure ranges (so player decides in ship design)

Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:03 pmHow does combat targetting system treat the different shots of one faction in one bout?
The model is that each shot is completely random ("simultaneous acquisition"). Implementation is sequential though. The only state that I can see is using value(structure) so that maybe the results would differ in a bout when structure changes.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:03 pmIf it is the former, some bouts could get rather odd and inconsistent results, when the there are only a few (or just one) preferred target and the rest of enemies are does not cualify, so ALL your shots on that bout gets concentrated on the few preferred targets, and the rest of enemies are effectivelly immune for that bout.

This undesired situation can arise any time we divide possible targets in distinct groups, if target acquisition is simultaneous.
Thats how it works. For experimentation we could add an "Overkill Compensator" battle scanner which prevents the ship from shooting at a ship which already got so much damage that it will be dead at the end of the bout.
Except for "armed ships first": it is hardly a problem to finish the carriers before the fighters.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:03 pm
Policy Battle Scanner. ... (Troop-and-Colony-and-Outpost-ships, Armed, Planet, Ships-with-Flak)
...
On the other hand, if this targetting policies are scripted in computer parts, like the others, that could work just fine. A player would be designing his fleets with this in mind. Some of the ships would be trooper-snipers, some would be sniper-sniper (target ships with high damage output first).
Think dedicated trooper-sniper ships are overly specialised, aren't they. Planet attack ships are probably fine. Anti-flak ships maybe overly specialised.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:03 pm
Sniper Battle Scanner. Internal Part, no other battle scanner. targetCondition = ship with highest structure
As with the Efficient Battle Scanner, if targetting it is simultaneous, the Sniper Battle Scanner would work awfully, concentrating all shots of each bout in a single target (the one with maximum structure)
That was the idea. Bring down the enemy death star. Or bring not so many Snipers to the battle. Maybe that is too situational and rather a policy thingy.

How about allowing multiple battle scanner parts per ship? In an example, you would add the "Overkill Compensator" and "Sniper (== highest structure)" to a design. Targeting preferences would first try to match both Overkill Compensator AND Sniper (resulting only in a target if the highest structure ship is still alive at shot time), if that results in no targets it would try to match "Overkill Compensator OR Sniper" (resulting in the (dying) highest structure ship plus all living ships at shot time), if that does not match anything all targets are good (probably only dying ships left)

For the moment I am thinking that for 0.4.9 maybe we should just adjust the default ShortRange targeting condition to target ships AND planets first, then fighters.
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