Scorched Earth Tactics

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Oberlus
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#31 Post by Oberlus »

Daybreak wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:58 am The whole poiint is to just stop someone killing off a species as scorched earth, but if the species exists somewhere else, irrespective if it is in friendly or enemy territory, then it should be allowed as a valid tactic.
I disagree.
Scorched earth is denying a species to someone, or just denying populations (or buildings).
The same LienRag complains about losing a species for good, he could complain for people killing off the planets he was going to invade, specially if they had species he wants.

So, for me, the point is to stop someone killing off planets as scorched earth. If they can evacuate the populations somewhere else, OK; if they are actually killing the populations, go the Conc. Camp route.
It's just wrong that a supposedly non-evil empire, or democratic, or whatever, kills off whole planets just to stop the enemy controlling them. That must have a toll for the empire. That toll can be Racial Purity (until someone comes up with something better, policy-wise).

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LienRag
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#32 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:34 pm The same LienRag complains about losing a species for good, he could complain for people killing off the planets he was going to invade, specially if they had species he wants.
I do that in my mind when an enemy does it to me, but I don't confuse personal setbacks with game unbalance.

My qualm with scorched earth tactics is from the beginning that they should not be a no-brainer, and that destroying things irremediably is too powerful (as it is often not counterable).


Oberlus wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:34 pm It's just wrong that a supposedly non-evil empire, or democratic, or whatever, kills off whole planets just to stop the enemy controlling them. That must have a toll for the empire. That toll can be Racial Purity (until someone comes up with something better, policy-wise).


Agree with that fluff.
Xenoresurrection Lab being able to resurrect a Species when built at one of its homeworld seems right to me fluff-wise also.

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Oberlus
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#33 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:53 pm Xenoresurrection Lab being able to resurrect a Species when built at one of its homeworld seems right to me fluff-wise also.
Hmmm...
Including when the species is not extinct, I guess. It makes little sense that I can't resurrect a species from its homeworld unless it doesn't existe anywhere else.
Regardless of that, the thing is with that mechanic, removing a species from game is impossible.

Removing a species from game should be possible.
It is never a no-brainer since it is a sacrifice you also make (e.g. no Muursh for them, no Muursh for me; or "one less species for Diversity for them, and for me"), and a sacrifize you make when you are the only one possessing that species.

So I'm against resurrecting the species that are not labeled "extinct" (currently Banforo, Kilandow and Misiorla).

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Krikkitone
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#34 Post by Krikkitone »

A possible idea for still allowing Xenoresurrection of “nonextinct” species

If you control a species hw, but have no population of that species in your empire (including on its hw)
you have 2 special things you can do with that hw
1. Xenoresurrection
2. “Erase” a species hw, which removes the species hw special, and makes it a normal world….(if there are populations of that species outside of your empire, the biggest population gains the hw bonus….this would probably count as evil like conc.camps

As for evacuation…I think limiting it to worlds
1. of same species
2. with room
3. not at war
(and of course in supply)
seems good. And any less than one is swallowed up.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#35 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:34 pm So, for me, the point is to stop someone killing off planets as scorched earth. If they can evacuate the populations somewhere else, OK; if they are actually killing the populations, go the Conc. Camp route.
It's just wrong that a supposedly non-evil empire, or democratic, or whatever, kills off whole planets just to stop the enemy controlling them. That must have a toll for the empire. That toll can be Racial Purity (until someone comes up with something better, policy-wise).
So the 2 easiest fixes would be stopping the effect, or destroying the building. Probably the 1st? The 2nd would require rebuilding the evac when you re-establish supply connection.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#36 Post by quarague »

Question: Do people use evacuation in order to move population to another owned planet?

The game certainly allows for that but in my personal plays I never had a situation where this seemed useful. I only used evacuation when the main goal was to get rid of the population of a planet. Either because I wanted to get rid of the species in my empire completely or because I wanted to settle a different species on the planet (usually AI conquered planet settled with exobots).

Fluffwise one could argue that even evacuating a population if you have a place for them to go is 'not nice', although clearly not nearly as bad as evacuating them to the void. In that sense I would put a bigger difference between either a) playing nasty towards populations using racial purity and conc camps allowing you to quickly get rid of the population of a planet or b) playing nice with diversity and/or liberty where you can't get rid of the population of a planet easily.

The drastic change would be that evacuation only works for exobots (and probably be renamed to 'deactivate exobots' or similar). Otherwise I would still restrict evacuation to only work if you (or an ally) have a supply connected planet with the same species. Again, if you can't supply a nice place for the population to move to, you can't get rid of them. You have to use conc camps to make a population disappear.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#37 Post by Oberlus »

quarague wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:45 am Question: Do people use evacuation in order to move population to another owned planet?
Yes.

Common case is in multiplayer games. The AI is not up to the task against experienced players, but fellow humans can put you in dire situations. I've evacuated people from border worlds to both deny the population to the incoming invasion and get population boosts in my other planets.
Sometimes against AI I've used evacuation to free certain planet for another species because of some special or the location or whatever, while the previous population went to some other planet.
Seldom, after conquering two tiny planets of the same (new to my empire) species, I've evacuated one planet to the other, in order to reach minimum colonizing threshold sooner to start building new colonies of that species.
quarague wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 7:45 am Fluffwise one could argue that even evacuating a population if you have a place for them to go is 'not nice', although clearly not nearly as bad as evacuating them to the void. In that sense I would put a bigger difference between either a) playing nasty towards populations using racial purity and conc camps allowing you to quickly get rid of the population of a planet or b) playing nice with diversity and/or liberty where you can't get rid of the population of a planet easily.

The drastic change would be that evacuation only works for exobots (and probably be renamed to 'deactivate exobots' or similar). Otherwise I would still restrict evacuation to only work if you (or an ally) have a supply connected planet with the same species. Again, if you can't supply a nice place for the population to move to, you can't get rid of them. You have to use conc camps to make a population disappear.
Agree.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#38 Post by wobbly »

Proposed change to evac building:

If no supply connected target then target = source.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#39 Post by Oberlus »

Sounds good, +1

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LienRag
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#40 Post by LienRag »

I don't understand what the consequences of this will be ?

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#41 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 2:34 pm I don't understand what the consequences of this will be ?
If there is nowhere to evac to, then they stay where they are.

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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#42 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Wed May 03, 2023 7:22 am Proposed change to evac building:

If no supply connected target then target = source.
Better than the current feature. Implementation probably by tweaking activation and adding a second effect which gives the sitrep message that evacuees could not leave because there was no species colony where they could go
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Re: Scorched Earth Tactics

#43 Post by Ophiuchus »

Optiona extensionl: could unify by putting all the connected species colonies (not depending on ownership) into the scope

So for evacuation of people, one needs supply connection to the target system AND also supply connection is sufficient for evacuation

This precludes distributed empires from using evacuation, but that is fine I think.

Also that extension means that allied planets are usually valid targets. Sometimes even enemy planets in the sphere of influence are valid targets

I'm for the proposed with our without this extension
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