Balance Vassalization

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wobbly
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Balance Vassalization

#1 Post by wobbly »

Currently a single planet is equivalent to 3 resource specials. It's also around twice the influence of a great research species on influence focus, with the added bonus that you are not paying for influence upkeep. So its better to build a colony and declare independence then it is to build a colony and put it on influence focus, by a lot.

Also you probably shouldn't be able to vassalize the ancient guardians.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Balance Vassalization

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Specific suggestions for how to change things are more helpful than just noting a problem.

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#3 Post by o01eg »

wobbly wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:21 pm Currently a single planet is equivalent to 3 resource specials. It's also around twice the influence of a great research species on influence focus, with the added bonus that you are not paying for influence upkeep. So its better to build a colony and declare independence then it is to build a colony and put it on influence focus, by a lot.
I suppose independent colony doesn't give flat research and industry bonuses.
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wobbly
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Re: Balance Vassalization

#4 Post by wobbly »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:30 pm Specific suggestions for how to change things are more helpful than just noting a problem.
Perhaps as simple as halving the current number? and baring ancient guardians/exobots?

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#5 Post by BlueAward »

I found vassalization rather strong, noted that in MP21 and since nothing has changed, I am using it now as well in MP22 obviously and why LienRag is using it, obviously.

An independent planet roughly counts like three planets put on influence focus by current design, not as three specials? actually bit more because you do not own that planet so lowers influence costs (another planet in the system is of lesser benefit as the pop is totalled per system not per planet before putting it on square root).

You are paying for that by not having the flat bonuses for the planet but it is not significant cost I would think. You have kind of freed entire two planets to do science or production instead of influence, so who cares about some flat bonuses. More painful is having to unlock it which is rather awkward. And not obvious to have good systems for that, if they have gas giant or asteroids you may rather focus on those flat bonuses after all despite my diss. And not obvious to have other species (besides exobots unless nerfed). Most importantly though is that it does take a policy slot which is rather high demand on those.

My gut feeling is to put it on 2 times modifier rather than original 3 or what wobbly is proposing, 1.5. But maybe I am biased because I saw the light how good it is and do not want it nerfed too much. I think of it that by giving one planet up I have freed another planet to do something else that I wanted instead of influence. Whole two planets does sound too much (3 times multiplier) but one other planet doesn't sound too much especially with the costs involved. Certainly bringing it down to multiplier of 1 means it stops making sense, unless perhaps to take advantage of unconquered natives without actually conquering them

On that note... Including ancient guardians, again I am biased, but it is at least a way to have some use of them on the cheap rather than dealing with them otherwise... and gives you chances to use it even if you did not get any natives otherwise. So I would not like to see it go personally. I understand LR is taking advantage of it as well as I am in MP22. Nerfing this would decrease appeal too. And if you think this should be nerfed, then probably also should be nerfed for colonialism if it is not

Similarly for exobots.. if I do want to take advantage of vassalization, at least I am not at mercy of having some other species around. Exobots cost more to produce than normal colonies, but at least everybody can have them if they also put research to it. Might be relevant to planned scenario for MP23. If we are to honor gentleman's agreement not to do shady deals, then someone who can't get other species really is hosed in terms of vassalization and other stuff too.

So yes, I am biased. I saw the light and can't believe only LienRag saw it too. Vassalization IMHO currently is hands down the best way to get influence and clearly needs nerfing but I would not like to have it overnerfed... sigh

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#6 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:55 pm On that note... Including ancient guardians, again I am biased, but it is at least a way to have some use of them on the cheap rather than dealing with them otherwise... and gives you chances to use it even if you did not get any natives otherwise. So I would not like to see it go personally. I understand LR is taking advantage of it as well as I am in MP22. Nerfing this would decrease appeal too. And if you think this should be nerfed, then probably also should be nerfed for colonialism if it is not
For me the issue with ancient guardians is more about the aesthetics then the exploit. Vassalizing ancient guardians makes very little sense.

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#7 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:55 pm An independent planet roughly counts like three planets put on influence focus by current design, not as three specials? actually bit more because you do not own that planet so lowers influence costs (another planet in the system is of lesser benefit as the pop is totalled per system not per planet before putting it on square root).
a 9 pop planet (medium good environment, not homeworld, no growth bonuses) is 9, e.g. 3 export specials.
BlueAward wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:55 pm My gut feeling is to put it on 2 times modifier rather than original 3 or what wobbly is proposing, 1.5. But maybe I am biased because I saw the light how good it is and do not want it nerfed too much. I think of it that by giving one planet up I have freed another planet to do something else that I wanted instead of influence. Whole two planets does sound too much (3 times multiplier) but one other planet doesn't sound too much especially with the costs involved. Certainly bringing it down to multiplier of 1 means it stops making sense, unless perhaps to take advantage of unconquered natives without actually conquering them
Yeah I'm not certain what the actual figure should be, which is why I didn't suggest a change in the original post. What was obvious to me both in this game and the last is an empire without vassalization isn't getting anywhere close without sacrificing a ton of planets to influence (or having artisans).

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LienRag
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Re: Balance Vassalization

#8 Post by LienRag »

It is clearly a no-brainer once Empire size grows; but to make it less so, the better way would be to have different ways to have good Influence.
Which imho means that we need to work hard on what we want to do with Influence for the game (not just have a vague idea "limit steamrolling").

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#9 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:08 pm It is clearly a no-brainer once Empire size grows; but to make it less so, the better way would be to have different ways to have good Influence.
Which imho means that we need to work hard on what we want to do with Influence for the game (not just have a vague idea "limit steamrolling").
I'm waiting for that hard work. When will it be ready?

Unless you think you are the CEO of Freeorion and are just just trying to motivate the employees.

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#10 Post by wobbly »

It's possible that "vassalization" should have a more real meaning down the track. Arguably a vassal colony should be fighting with you if you are attacked. For now either halving it or making it 2/3rds as BA suggested is probably good enough. I pushed a PR

https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/4389

to stop vassalization (and colonialism) working for ancient guardians thinking this was the least contentious change. This was about half an hour before BA responded, so maybe it is actually contentious, I'll leave it up to someone with pull access to master to decide. I didn't explicitly bar colonialism, I just switched it to protection focus (and halved shields, troops), so colonialism wouldn't work . Again this is partially aesthetic. Maybe it's just me, but every time I see the industry focus on them and an industry number, it bothers me a little.

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LienRag
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Re: Balance Vassalization

#11 Post by LienRag »

That's quite mean of you, Oberlus, to imply that I'm not actually FreeOrion's Chummy Experimentator of Outcomes...

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#12 Post by BlueAward »

wobbly wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:05 pm I didn't explicitly bar colonialism, I just switched it to protection focus (and halved shields, troops), so colonialism wouldn't work . Again this is partially aesthetic. Maybe it's just me, but every time I see the industry focus on them and an industry number, it bothers me a little.
I like them being on protection focus, just makes sense. Though one additional side effect I think is increased replenishment of defenses, at least troops. Not sure if they ever start with not full troops? I saw them start without shields so you have chance to spend less time banging on their shields. But I think only troops replebish at a faster rate with protection focus? And probably if anyone wants to invade them, they aould rather do it with all necessary troops roght away

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#13 Post by wobbly »

BlueAward wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:29 am
wobbly wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:05 pm I didn't explicitly bar colonialism, I just switched it to protection focus (and halved shields, troops), so colonialism wouldn't work . Again this is partially aesthetic. Maybe it's just me, but every time I see the industry focus on them and an industry number, it bothers me a little.
I like them being on protection focus, just makes sense. Though one additional side effect I think is increased replenishment of defenses, at least troops. Not sure if they ever start with not full troops? I saw them start without shields so you have chance to spend less time banging on their shields. But I think only troops replebish at a faster rate with protection focus? And probably if anyone wants to invade them, they aould rather do it with all necessary troops roght away
Natives/Ancient Guardians not starting with their full defenses up is arguably a bug, though I tend to think of it more as unintended mechanics. Its to do with the order of processing, in the case of ancient guardians they don't actually exist during universe generation. They are placed by scripting on specials. Likewise a special such as moderate tech natives is placed after natives are already placed and the meters are only modified at whatever stage the scripting on the special runs.

I don't mind the resulting tactic of racing to plant a frigate on them before they can reach full defense, but I also don't think of it as an intended mechanic that needs to be protected.

As far as side effects go I saw 2. The 1st is the one you mentioned, troops reach max. twice as fast. The 2nd is having around +12 troops. It changes from 10 (homeworld) + 0.2 x pop + 10 x pop to 2 x 10 + 2 x 0.2 x pop + 2 x 5 x pop. There will be a 3rd side effect if you see ancient guards on ancient ruins, computronium moon or panopticon complex. The scripting places moderate tech natives on ancient guards there, so it'll be doubled. e.g. an extra: + 10 * scaling defense, +10 * scaling shield, +10 troops

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#14 Post by BlueAward »

I'd rather see vassalization more as an equalizer and remove it working with trait bonus. You've got Derthreans or something? Great for you, you've got nice influence production already, no need to double THAT down with vassalization. Meanwhile, someone with only sucky influence species, could get more out of vassalization.

So far I didn't see it a problem to find some kind of better than average species to put as influencers on vassalization duty, but I guess makes me doubly sad for someone who didn't find it. So the removal of trait bonus would make it less luck dependent.

Though admittedly I still can't believe that besides me, only LR so far in MP games went vassalization route. I guess other ways of gaining influence are good enough for "medium" empires?

Best deal overall may still be artisan workshops for Egassem, Human, Scylior or Cray (basically the main species, cause it's less of a deal for something like Sslith or Silexian but still may be worthwhile) considering the ease of setting it up. But vassalization still hands down best conversion of production into influence, even if awkward to set up. I like the awkwardness though. Nearly universal translator is simpler, could be put everywhere, but is less influence output and after nerfing definitely more costly than setting up a colony for vassalization (until a point I guess, regarding the cost). Terraforming could be great, but is so gosh darn expensive and also needs more careful planning. Environmentalism and divine authority generally great for influence, but the cost of lost production or science looks punishing for sprawling empires, and non-sprawling ones don't exactly need much of influence fixing. Also why is environmetalism in the terraforming tree instead of xenohybrydization tree. It benefits more with xeno techs that don't require terraforming. I guess hippies need to know about terraforming to object to it. And environmentalism actually may be nice (but presumably temporary) conversion of production into science, especially if you have Sly or exobots on asteroids for production duty... But I digress.

Maybe nerf the multiplier more after all. 1.75? 1.5, along with my proposed change of non-trait-relatedness, would sorta translate to virtual conversion of any species into derthreans, sans static PP and RP bonuses, but also sans upkeep influence malus, for having the colony. May be good enough then, and gains more relevance as your empire grows, but still 1.5x would feel like bit of overnerf considering the complicated setup. But it would still probably be best way to gain influence, so maybe at that point other ways should be boosted...

Maybe first remove it out of trait boost and see from there? Though probably not during MP26 :)

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Re: Balance Vassalization

#15 Post by wobbly »

+1

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