Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

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LienRag
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#226 Post by LienRag »

You're right, it's a second bug. But it's not an exploit though, which is what matters for the game : we know now how it works, and players can plan for it.

About the supply, that's exactly what we were supposed to test, and the reason for this unusual diplomatic arrangement.

And to answer your specific question, yes I'm building just fine at Firma alpha.

Also : sorry for the delay, I was under the impression that I did play this turn (actually I had mixed the warning for 88 with the one for 89).

Oberlus : a principle of good game design is that when "there's a clear winner", then he can actually win quickly.
This in order to avoid the "he thinks he's winning, maybe I can (or we can if we gang up) contest that victory, but that would be an endless grind with little chance of victory, so meh, not worth it".
I never played Master of Orion¹ but from what I get that was what conquering Orion was for.


¹ I did waste a lot of time playing Master of Magic though; don't recommend, the game was innovating for its time, but its time is long past

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Oberlus
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#227 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:44 pm Oberlus : a principle of good game design is that when "there's a clear winner", then he can actually win quickly.
This in order to avoid the "he thinks he's winning, maybe I can (or we can if we gang up) contest that victory, but that would be an endless grind with little chance of victory, so meh, not worth it".
I can't say anything about good game design principles, not my field.
However, if someone that is clearly winning needs an endless grind, that is not what I would call clearly winning.
Also, "win quickly" (say 20 turns), in an MP game with about 1 turn per day that means several weeks.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#228 Post by wobbly »

Most of the recent multiplayer games actually finished with a dominant position:

21st - BA within unstoppable reach of transcendence
20th - wobbly within unstoppable reach of transcendence, unstoppable invasion force at daybreak's capital
19th - Tower defense game, experimenters defeated
18th - Team LienRag/o01eg/SilentOne defeated by Resignation

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#229 Post by o01eg »

...
wobbly wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:27 pm So yeah, I'll go with the general consensus.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:51 pm Anyways, I'm not asking to stop the game as long as others want to continue it.
LienRag wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:18 pm So, I'll follow the collective decision, but if we stop the game without addressing in any way the main problem, I'm not sure to join future games.
Looks like the collective decision is to follow collective decision )
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#230 Post by wobbly »

Daybreak wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:14 am I have only just started to enjoy single player games when I realsised I could set planet stability at 20, and Capital IP at 20 as well. Even then I dont enjoy it as much as 4.9.
I would like -
planet stability limit to be 40
Capital IP limit to be 40
For these 2 you can change the cap in /default/game rules.py

As to the rest the solution to prefering 4.9 is probably to play 4.9

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#231 Post by Oberlus »

Given that Daybreak abandoned the game (without a warning or conceding), and the votes in the poll, I guess we start 23rd game this week and 22nd is over.

What do you think would have been the outcome if we kept playing?

At start I thought Ophiuchus would be the winner, because of Mu Ursh and Kobuntura close to his homeworld, only two neighbors and one of them an ally.
Then I saw MinMax BlueAward was doing great. And I got to know wobbly was also doing great. And that LienRag was expanding unmolested like there's no tomorrow, thanks to him fooling Daybreak into a NAP to "help" Endhu against BA (despite LR helping close to nothing and just taking advantage of unhindered expansion).
So I guess the losers, no matter what, would have been Endhu, Daybreak and me.
No idea about o01eg, I saw he had good army and was playing coordinated with Ophiuchus. I was playing mostly with BA (Ophiuchus and I got some misunderstandings, plus I never approved his actions in BA borders). Daybreak and Endhu were some kind of pack. LienRag is mostly on his own (because he can't act as an ally), and BA was also the best ally of Wobbly.

Maybe, since Daybreak was falling back without LR's real help, if LR+Wobbly+BA turned onto Ophiuchus (and Ophiuchus was really asking for such a thing), the combo Ophi+o01eg would have succumbed.
Eventually DB and I would have been swallowed by LR (maybe I get to keep some ships or planets in BA's space to keep watching the movie). In the end it could have been BA vs LR, with Wobbly scouting LR's space for BA, and gifting ships to him.

So I would vote for BA+Wobbly victory.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#232 Post by wobbly »

I'm not in a rush to speculate on who would of won, particularly as I can't see several empires. I suspect Daybreak was in trouble, he didn't contest enough space with LR, and with Endhu being invaded by BlueAward was probably just going to be squeezed. o01eg was probably in trouble soon, though I can only see the front of his empire so hard to tell.

Mostly I'm just curious why I was never ejected from the region around the Hhhoh by Ophi/o01eg. My defenses were pretty flaky there till towards the end when I managed to get an Eawax asteroid shipyard in close. I kept expecting an attack that never came.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#233 Post by o01eg »

At least we can play two more week, maybe even with using AI to manage Daybreak empire, to have more certainty about who's going to win.
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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#234 Post by BlueAward »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:05 am So I would vote for BA+Wobbly victory.
Hehe thank you! While not 100% set in stone, that is a reasonable projection I would think :D

Early on, based on doomsaying by Oberlus and such, I was expecting it goes down to wobbly and LienRag against o01eg and Ophi. Did not like how I had three enemies more or less close, and an ally next to me that is apparently in an even weaker spot and with Trith, too. While the ally who is in strong position is very far away. Now, maybe it could still go this way, double-o team against wobbly and LR, but I certainly am not doing badly

Looking early on at my situation, psyched about Ophiuchus, I ended up forfeiting expanding north as a buffer between me and Ophiuchus and o01eg, rather than putting myself between them, even though there were a few natives in the area if I connected to Oberlus through north path (4 natives in fact, all those by now under Ophi... maybe they served as enough distraction, maybe they are liability strengthening his empire...). But despite my own exploration gambit that drew wobbly nuts, I did know about Vulp Uglush south from Trith senses, so decided to rather expand that direction and have ample space to fall back south from presumed attack by Ophi north, so I would hopefully not even care (that) much if my capital got lost. Prepared even some extra shipyards, though that would also be helpful to send stuff south faster.

In my quest to expand south and connect to Oberlus that way, turned out Vulp Uglush are further away than I thought/hoped for, but there was nice large Derthrean world closer. And I've ran into Endhu there, who has already put in motion plan to grab those Derthreans. We started negotiations if non aggression could be arranged, he did not know about Vulp Uglush yet but generally was not happy about me having systems there to connect to Oberlus.. Fair enough, too close to his homeworld turned out. But I wanted the south connection to Oberlus and Vulp Uglush, rather than the north connection, and also wondered who is getting those Derthreans and generally the area to live there. Well, for the Derthreans, Endhu did grab them first, having them closer to his capital. I could let him be and just grab Vulp Uglush and path to Oberlus and see what happens, but ultimately did not look like Endhu would be happy by me being there, so I have repurposed the machinery set in motion to grab Vulp Uglush to actually grab Derthreans and thus the first real conflict in the galaxy ensued, me being the menace. Vulp Uglush would come later anyway. Meanwhile the area close to Endhu's capital also had lithic growth special, rather precious to me, George, and Vulp Uglush, so definitely wanted to stick around. Figured grabbing Sly would be nice too, and if I secured south flank I could focus on north defenses from Ophi. Ultimately Daybreak decided to interfere and help his ally, I think sealing his fate to be on the losing side - he could have a peaceful neighbour in me, if not an ally. But fair enough, they made my life painful, successfully protracted me getting Sly, discovered some bugs in the process...

In the end I don't think I am doing badly, over 140 PP, over 70 RP, holding the south flank, eyeing if Ophi wants to check my north flank defenses... probably worrying there is an attack coming.. Probably uneasy if they see a concerted attack from two sides...

I am thinking this could really go differently if I let Endhu alone except for what I definitely wanted, Vulp Uglush, and go north to have more fun with o01eg and Ophi instead. That would give me Derthreans anyway from the other homeworld, those other natives too, and wonder what would the double-o duo do. Maybe Endhu would be down to exchanging Sly anyway if I wasn't a menace there and promised relatively peaceful coexistence despite forced war status. It would also have been an easier route to get Eawax from wobbly sooner. Who knows, maybe I would have that other huge barren native homeworld than Vulp Uglush, too :3

I do not feel that punished by exploration gambit, and don't think LienRag feels either. I tested it on quite a few starts in single player and was happy with the results. Sure, I understand the part about lost tempo from not exploring earlier, and some opportunity cost of not settling something with initial colonizer for example. But generally for production starts, I felt like I can build military command that way and get research out of it, and whatever I would know about a few turns earlier otherwise, I felt like I could not act on anyway that much earlier, because you still need ships, troops etc. I appreciate it is a trade off but it is not as bad as you think. Otherwise I would never feel it is time to build military command, while this way I have higher purpose for it and actually have it and be done with it.

Do not think it is best start by any means for any situation. Or that it is truly best for situations I would go with it. It is just that for production start exploration really is a huge chunk of early research, that's the fever I caught from LienRag in MP21 (like he maybe caught Vassalization fever from me?). It is truly unfortunate you can't get back "lost" research. Don't think anything changed around this, right? Not even proposed retraction of exclusion between colonization and exploration, right?

In single player I used to love strong research starts but this George thingie makes me reconsider my allegiance, particularly for human players that may not leave you alone as much as AI would (in MP21 I was left alone and protected by the rest of the team and research was still silly good... but for a more dangerous universe, not so sure anymore)

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#235 Post by wobbly »

I'm still very unsure on whether you cementing that space before Ophi got there would of been the right decision or wrong. Probably it worked out. Harder to fight endhu and defend it at the same time. Possibly it could of cost you. If Ophi/o01eg had expanded there sooner, they'd be on your doorstep in the middle of a war. That happened anyway, but could of occurred sooner.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#236 Post by wobbly »

1 thing I've been uhming and arring about whether to say. Fixed alliance games where LR is playing. I'm not playing ever again. Sorry, this is my recreational time. I don't play to be enraged. Tried tolerating it twice. Not a 3rd time.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#237 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:31 pmFixed alliance games where LR is playing. I'm not playing ever again.
Not a problem, I think. We can play no teams, open teams, and fixed teams where you and LR are not in the same time.
I won't ban LR from my team because I am masochistic as well as twisted and can have fun from being the quintacolumnista.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#238 Post by o01eg »

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#239 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:31 pm 1 thing I've been uhming and arring about whether to say. Fixed alliance games where LR is playing. I'm not playing ever again. Sorry, this is my recreational time. I don't play to be enraged. Tried tolerating it twice. Not a 3rd time.
It's usually way better to say things like that rather than let them underneath, so thank you for your declaration.

What puzzles me a little bit though, is that since the two games were quite different, the only thing I did (that I'm aware of) the same way in both of them is to try to coordinate our actions, in order to get a better efficiency.
But (maybe not in an explicit manner) it was an offer of coordination, not an obligation. I mean, coordination (when well done) is objectively better efficiency-wise, but it's up to each player to consider it more or less fun than independent play, so each can state their preferences.

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Re: Twenty-second game on the multiplayer slow game server

#240 Post by wobbly »

It was your utterly self-centred behaviour combined with your constant refusal to consider that you might of done something wrong even when pulled up on it.

This is not the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd time I've mentioned it and it's not just me who has said something. Every time you ignore the criticism out of existence and then act like the problem has gone away because you ignored it.

You are puzzled because you refuse to even look.

If you were just playing single player I'd ignore it. When you play team games your team mates have to deal with what you refuse to look at. That is flat out, not fair.

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