what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

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Moriturus
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what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#1 Post by Moriturus »

I am profoundly unable to understand how (or even whether) the zero point fuel generator works. The help says "regenerates fuel" - giving no conditions, no rate, no restrictions, no idea of what to expect, no mention of interaction with other "regenerates fuel" conditions like biological hulls etc... so it's hard to even be sure enough of the intent to know whether this is a bug. But it just doesn't seem possible that its near-complete lack of effect is what's actually intended.

Having got the top fuel technology in the game - zero point generator - AND sacrificed mounting powerful spinal antimatter cannons to have a class of ships that can use it - I am STILL getting 'can't go that far' when I try to venture more than three jumps away from my supply line. And having built a scout that is specifically intended to be independent of my own supply lines so that it can, you know, SCOUT - it can't go a dozen jumps out of supply, much less cross the galaxy at full speed. I get more additional range, in fact, from having a plain old extra fuel tank.

So having zero-point generation seems pretty much like not having it. Likewise ramscoops, even if I sacrifice the entire external-slots armament of the ship to try to mount enough of them to just KEEP GOING.

I thought this must be a bug but it's been stable for several versions now. Is there truly no way to build long-range ships? Even if they have to be completely unarmed, unarmored, and slow, I DO want a long-range scout or two.

What was the point of it again? Why is it supposed to be advantageous? If the zero-point generator is just a minor effect like one ramscoop, and not even as beneficial as an extra fuel tank, then why is it considered important enough to take a core slot?

wobbly
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#2 Post by wobbly »

According to the scripting it sets fuel to Max at the start of each turn. Note the UI will still believe the range is limited. If it's not setting fuel to Max. each turn then there is a bug.

quarague
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#3 Post by quarague »

So the intended effect is that you never have to worry about fuel again if you install one of those. That seems appropriate for a high end tech but maybe there is a better way to achieve this result in a way that is more obvious to understand for the player and that the UI recognizes.

Could one just set the fuel consumption to 0? That way the UI should be able to compute an infinite range without any adjustment (hopefully) and it would be clear to the player that installing one of these means the ship will never run out of fuel.

wobbly
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#4 Post by wobbly »

Simplest would be to set Max. Fuel to 99 or similar. Unless there is a design reason for the current setup.

BlueAward
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#5 Post by BlueAward »

Nb. krakens have similar issue, they have like 4 fuel that never actually runs out, but you only see 4-5 jumps in the GUI

Moriturus
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#6 Post by Moriturus »

It is most definitely the range of a single journey that matters for tactical and exploration purposes. Setting fuel to 'max' each turn is no help when the ship still has to stop somewhere the enemy can get at it (or where the enemy can get at the troop ships or colony ships it needs to be protecting) in the middle of the journey. Right now I have the absurd situation that the ships with ZPFGs are literally the shortest range fighters in the game and can't escort colony ships when they're going on ordinary missions.

If it's supposed to mean you don't worry about fuel any more ever, then setting it to max every turn isn't enough. Take the longest path in the galaxy (or the square root of the number of systems), divide it by the worst fuel efficiency in the game, and treat the affected ship as having an 'extra fuel tank' with that capacity.

Ophiuchus
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

there is a fuel meter and a max fuel meter on a ship. The max meter sets the upper bound of the fuel meter.
The zero point fuel generator sets the fuel meter value to the max fuel meter value.
Moriturus wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:59 pmIf it's supposed to mean you don't worry about fuel any more ever, then setting it to max every turn isn't enough.
that is why wobbly suggested increasing max fuel as well (e.g. to 99).
Moriturus wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:59 pm Right now I have the absurd situation that the ships with ZPFGs are literally the shortest range fighters in the game and can't escort colony ships when they're going on ordinary missions.
this might be fine (see below) - this is definitely not absurd. the current way out: simply do not use zero point fuel generator ships for that kind of mission - instead use some lighter hulls. almost all parts have some kind of trade-offs.
Moriturus wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:59 pm Setting fuel to 'max' each turn is no help when the ship still has to stop somewhere the enemy can get at it (or where the enemy can get at the troop ships or colony ships it needs to be protecting) in the middle of the journey.
This might actually be the only reason I can think of not to increase max fuel. To keep max fuel meter relevant in some cases. So to get better non-stop range you would also have to put in fuel tanks in your design.

But it makes for a clunky user interface so I would not object to increasing max fuel.
Monsters might need a maximum trip range though, but i do not think they use the ship part for that anyway.
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Geoff the Medio
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#8 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Setting max fuel to 99 for content that has sufficiently fast fuel regen sounds reasonable.

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Oberlus
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#9 Post by Oberlus »

Yes, let's increase max fuel too.
I also think it makes no sense that the best fuel part is also the only one that forces you to stop on every system (I also think that is actually absurd gameplay-wise).

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:38 am I also think it makes no sense that the best fuel part is also the only one that forces you to stop on every system (I also think that is actually absurd gameplay-wise).
I thought it rather the best refuel part (so rather an upgrade to the feeble ramscoop).

I think we have consensus to up max fuel. So somebody do this.
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Oberlus
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#11 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:57 am
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:38 am I also think it makes no sense that the best fuel part is also the only one that forces you to stop on every system (I also think that is actually absurd gameplay-wise).
I thought it rather the best refuel part (so rather an upgrade to the feeble ramscoop).
Yes, there is consensus, that's nice. But it is interesting, this discussion.

I see Ramscoop as expensive garbage. And zero-point as the non-garbage version. I mean, I could use Zero-point as it is now, but if it was unlocked at the time one unlocks Ramscoop.

The good thing about having more fuel is to not waste time with the ship idle (refuelling).
Without any refueling bonus from parts or species, you have to stop for 10 turns for each extra hop you want to make over your max fuel (IIRC base rate is +0.1 per turn).
Ramscoop reduces that to 5 idle turns per each extra hop. Moving a ship 1 turn and stopping 5 turns is seldom of any use: the game ends before you scout the whole galaxy using that.
Zero-point makes it a 1 mandatory stop every X hops (depending on fuel), which is much better, but by the time you get it you also have very nice fuel tank capacity, long supply range, plenty of resources to use outposts as refueling stations... There is no reason at all to use Zero-Point except for roleplaying the lonely explorer always seeking the next star (in an empty galaxy without killing blockades). I see the interesting synergies between having extra fuel to reduce the ratio 1:X, but I still see it as absurd gameplay-wise: I don't want to need even more fuel parts to do what I can already do with less fuel tanks.

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#12 Post by Moriturus »

I guess I'll point out here that the reason for the US nuclear navy isn't making it easy to refuel anywhere they happen to stop.

The point is to make it so they don't have to stop.

But, it looks like this isn't an argument.

In the current game I have default movement speed set slow, with the result that ships have 'decent' (slow) speed when setting out from a system I own, but once they have stopped anywhere else they resume movement at a 'normal' (much slower) speed. This makes the ZPFG's failure to extend trip range far more painful than it would ordinarily be.

Note, setting the default movement speed slow (1/10 speed) causes many unexpected interactions and conditions. Figuring out what speed is to be expected of a particular squadron on a particular trip (or even on a particular turn) is pretty opaque - if it were simpler enough for me to fully understand and characterize I'd probably have a handful of bugs to report.

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

Moriturus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:28 pmBut, it looks like this isn't an argument.
you are right, it is not an argument as we do not really care about reality. we do care about space opera and gameplay though.
Moriturus wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:28 pm Note, setting the default movement speed slow (1/10 speed) causes many unexpected interactions and conditions. Figuring out what speed is to be expected of a particular squadron on a particular trip (or even on a particular turn) is pretty opaque - if it were simpler enough for me to fully understand and characterize I'd probably have a handful of bugs to report.
hmm. i am not sure i follow you. being out of supply is not intended to be part of the movement speed. speed value does not care about fuel. as long as you have N fuel you can go N hops. If you have a fast ship you will do that N hops fast.

usually you need to make sure you supply your fleet. in a military situation being out of fuel means your fleet is basically sitting ducks. your enemy can organize a death stack exactly designed to destroy you with minimal losses.

good fuel efficiency ships and fuel tanks help you also with military manoeuvres out of supply. that is why i consider the zero point fuel generator overpowered - it works also for those ships which are usually helpless without a supply network.

the refuel situation is more useful if you have e.g. exactly one fuel missing for establishing a colony or are exploring in deep space. some species (sly and laenfa) and ship parts (ramscoop) help with that but usually that is not intended for tactical manoeuvres. for hidden movement you maybe also need this.
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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#14 Post by Moriturus »

It's not an out-of-supply issue, it's very specifically an is-there-a-colony-at-the-launch-point issue. For example, if a squadron is sitting at an unoccupied solar system, directly one jump adjacent from an occupied world and well within supply, the trip time for that squadron to go one jump to reach the occupied world can be seven or ten turns. But if that squadron includes an outpost ship, and creates an outpost in that solar system, then once the outpost exists the following turn the trip time to the already-occupied planet is down to one or two turns.

For another example a scout, starting from A, an occupied location in-supply, can move to C, a location far out of supply (three extra tanks, antimatter) with a trip time estimated at (say) ten turns. But if the scout has to slow down at location B (for example passing through a system with an enemy ship, even if there's no violence) then the remainder of the trip between B and C can suddenly become forty turns, in mid journey, just as though the scout had launched from an uncolonized system. This happens whether B is in-supply or out-of-supply.

Because squadrons that are sent separately can wind up with wildly different arrival times if anything disturbs one of the trips it's impractical to send fighters and troopers separately when attacking systems. Either the fighters get delayed leaving the troopers to get there first and be slaughtered, or the troopers get delayed leaving the fighters to hold out for an extended duration in a hostile system while mines are eating them turn after turn until the troops get there. So I run expensive, slow-to-build, heavily armored and sometimes even armed troopships and colony ships that I send with the main squadron.

And, I might as well state, this isn't the only issue. 1/10 movement speed doesn't work at all like just having the entire galaxy be ten times further apart. When I wanted all movement slow that was the effect I was going for. But hulls that have ANY speed bonus, launching from a colonized system, and any kind of speed-changing part, etc... seem to have wildly disproportionate/inconsistent effects.

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Re: what does the zero point fuel generator even do?

#15 Post by wobbly »

Can we talk about fuel scoop as well?

My suggestion is .2 x fuel efficency / turn which is:

0.2 robotic
0.4 symbiot
0.8 organic/flux

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