Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

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Ophiuchus
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Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

Selfsustaining has a high population bonus, but the same as a species with all three growth specials. So species with that have a quite a boost until mid-game depending on the settings for scarcity of specials. It is especially overpowered for early colonisation of bad environments.

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effects = SetTargetPopulation value = Value + 3 * Target.HabitableSize  // Gets the same bonus as three growth specials
Oberlus wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:30 pm But I get your point: starting population 24 (against 20 of Humans) is still quite good... Damnit, self-sustaining is indeed broken.
So lets make selfsustaining half the bonus it is now and let them have a rare/guarded single growth special giving the other half of the bonus.

That should delay getting the full bonus, and go some way making them less OP with low/no growth specials (as it will be even more impossible to find the other growth special).

Or lets make it more like a quest - keep self-sustaining like it is, but add something species-specific. Trith need to find a way to silence the voices. Until then the voices reduce maximum population (depending on proximity and population of foreign species to a trith colony).
You could wipe out a Trith colony on a poor trith environment planet by colonising close to it. Although this could make Sly etc quite the Trith killers.
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Oberlus
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Re: Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#2 Post by Oberlus »

An alternative that needs less changes: make self-sustaining apply only on good environments (so it's like an extra gaia instead of 3 growth specials). To get full gain you need to use terraforming a lot. It doesn't let you get poor planets sooner than anyone else.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:53 pm An alternative that needs less changes: make self-sustaining apply only on good environments (so it's like an extra gaia instead of 3 growth specials). To get full gain you need to use terraforming a lot. It doesn't let you get poor planets sooner than anyone else.
I like it.

And here is the PR-3234
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LienRag
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Re: Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#4 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:53 pm An alternative that needs less changes: make self-sustaining apply only on good environments (so it's like an extra gaia instead of 3 growth specials). To get full gain you need to use terraforming a lot. It doesn't let you get poor planets sooner than anyone else.
Very good thinking Oberlus, you nailed it I think.

Obviously it means that Self-sustaining will have a lot of a harder time colonizing than other metabolisms once those get Growth specials, so it's a big balance change, but it probably indeed will make the game more diverse and as such more interesting.

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Oberlus
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Re: Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#5 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:32 am Obviously it means that Self-sustaining will have a lot of a harder time colonizing than other metabolisms once those get Growth specials
I don't think so. Compared to non-self-sustaining species, they will get extra production early on (HW and good colonies with extra population) and won't be able to get to poor planets until Xeno Genetics, which is not that much harder than Subt. Hab. + Symb. Bio. + 1 Growth. So one thing compensates the other. In galaxies with no good worlds, they have some disadvantage, in galaxies with plenty of good planets they will remain overpowered.
But, obviously, we'll find out playtesting it.

Ophiuchus
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Re: Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:15 am
LienRag wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:32 am Obviously it means that Self-sustaining will have a lot of a harder time colonizing than other metabolisms once those get Growth specials
won't be able to get to poor planets until Xeno Genetics, which is not that much harder than Subt. Hab. + Symb. Bio. + 1 Growth.
If they come out underpowered, we can simply broaden environmental tolerance.
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Re: Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#7 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:43 pm If they come out underpowered, we can simply broaden environmental tolerance.
Yes, like giving them +1 to adequate, or +2 to adequate and +1 to poor. They still can't colonize poor as fast as (e.g.) organic with 2 growth specials, but get earlier bonuses to population to its HW and available good planets which can compensate for that (i.e. getting earlier access to xeno genetics from extra RP).

Ophiuchus
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Re: Split self-sustaining bonus in two parts

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:50 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:43 pm If they come out underpowered, we can simply broaden environmental tolerance.
Yes, like giving them +1 to adequate, or +2 to adequate and +1 to poor. They still can't colonize poor as fast as (e.g.) organic with 2 growth specials, but get earlier bonuses to population to its HW and available good planets which can compensate for that (i.e. getting earlier access to xeno genetics from extra RP).
I thought just simply to make more stuff adequate (not narrow environment) for easy terraforming.
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