Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

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Oberlus
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Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#1 Post by Oberlus »

PR#2916 makes Exobots adequate at all planet environments (asteroids remain poor and gas giants uninhabitable), and reduce the research investment required by unlocking them with Nascent AI, NAI, and Nanotech Production (instead of current requirement Adaptice Automation, AA). The research of Exobots is increased from 50 to 60, but that is debatable and subject to future rebalancing
It also decouples AA from NAI by removing the latter from the tech requirements of the former and adding instead Algorithmic Elegance.

There are three reasons for this changes. In order of importance:
  1. Help empires with few good/adequate planets nearby their HW (unlucky start) to be able to resort to Exobots as a poor man's option, so that these empires do not drag behind empires with many good/adequate planets nearby their HW (lucky start).
    Making Exobots researchable after Nascent AI and Nanotech Production allows to research them much faster, and thus such unlucky empires can start colonizing around 10 to 20 turns sooner, instead of having to wait for Adaptive Automation to unlock Exobots and/or to research several growth techs up to Xenologic Genetics to access poor planets with their starting species. If an unlucky empire is forced to prioritize one (or both) of these research paths (AA->Exobots or XenoGen) before being able to colonize any sensible number of planets, this empire has probably lost already (unless his enemies were not as unlucky and know the basics of playing FreeOrion), because the unlucky empire will be considerably weak in research, industry and/or military with respect other empires. And if this unlucky empire does not prioritize those two research paths and goes for military and/or PP/RP boosts, it will still be in a serious PP&RP output disadvantage due to lack of colonies. Either way the unlucky empire cannot win unless there are other factors (specials, monsters) that tip the scales to its side.
  2. Make Exobots equally useful to all playable species, instead of the current configuration that makes them useless to species that prefer Radiated planets (or marginally useful for such species when bad at industry), and very useful to species that prefer Terran, Ocean or Swamp.
    The point of this is to avoid that the Exobots tech is of no interest to part of the players, but it is only secondary to the previous point. Removing all playable species from Radiated worlds (and probably from Barren and Inferno) is in no way a nice solution for this objective, because there is no point in introducing such strong changes in species just to make Exobots equally useful, and most importantly because it would make impossible to achieve the first objective: make Exobots a poor man's solution to help balance starting positions and give chances of victory to all players.
  3. Increase research strategy options at start by not forcing every empire that pursues AA to also get first Nascent AI.
    Making AA researchable after Algorithmic Elegance instead of NAI allows empires interested only on the industry flat bonus to skip the research flat bonus.

Thoughts?

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#2 Post by Oberlus »

The Silent One made an interesting suggestion in the issue about unbalanced starting positions:
The Silent One wrote:exobots would be a prime candidate for TAR: cheap base tech with costly refinements that keep them competitive in late game.
The PR linked above does not consider this directly, but it could be a very nice follow up.

My first idea on this is that some new techs (estemming from Exobots in the research tree, maybe with some other requirements from other tech branches) could improve some of the following in Exobot worlds (one tech, one improvement):
  • Research.
  • Production.
  • Influence (when Government is merged).
  • Defensive troops.
  • Offensive troops.
  • Pilots species trait.
Maybe more.

I don't know if species traits can be modified (with FOCS) in-game, such as changing Research from bad to average, and later to good with an additional, very expensive refinement.
If it can't, we could still allow for flat bonuses to be added to Exobot planets (e.g. first tech gives +1, a three following refinements give +2, +3 and +4, adding up to a final +10). Or population-based bonuses instead of flat ones (such as +33% and +66%, with same priority than the species trait bonus, to get the same effect than we would get changing the Exobot's species trait). For some reason I like more the flat bonuses in this case.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#3 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus (agrrr3) made a comment in the PR. I have incorporated the answer of the "2)" point of his comment to the OP argumentation, but the following point needs debate here:
Ophiuchus (agrrr3) wrote:AFAICS Planetary Ecology and one late 1HS (e.g. a growth special) would be enough for asteroids.
Yes, since Poor planets have a base malus of -2 HS, and astroid belts have size 3, asteroids start at -6 pop for Exobots. Then we get:

Planetary Ecology (+1): -5 pop.
Subterranean Hab. (+3): -2 pop.
Simbiotic Biology (+3, but disables Planet, Eco, so +2): 0 pop.
One robotic growth special (if any in the map) (+3): 3 pop.
Without robotic specials, you must get Xenologic Genetics (+6): 6 pop.

I understand this is relevant in this debate (despite Exobot's Poor Tolerance on asteroids is not changed in this PR) because getting Exobots earlier implies that all empires can colonize asteroid belts earlier (by not having to get AA). However, I don't think that is actually relevant since that applies to all playable species and does not change game pace noticeably, particularly because not having AA for new colonized asteroids makes them considerably less productive early game.
Ophiuchus (agrrr3) wrote:On a side note most part of pop-based industry on asteroids gets reduced by about 63%.
I don't understand. -63% industry with respect to what?

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#4 Post by ThinkSome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:12 am
I think that being able to improve Exobots beyond average industry/res/piloting/... will result in everyone populating everything with them.
Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:47 am Simbiotic Biology ... Xenologic Genetics (+6): 6 pop.
Organic growth techs improving exobots (and other robotic species) is rather.... counterintuitive.

Perhaps there should be robotic analogies of XenoGen, SymBio and others that are also made prerequisites for the advanced robotic hulls?

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#5 Post by The Silent One »

ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 11:43 amI think that being able to improve Exobots beyond average industry/res/piloting/... will result in everyone populating everything with them.
A fair point, and to prevent exobot spamming, exobot refinements (ER) should be limited in number and effect, and powerful refinements should be costly so that they only become available in late-game. Exobots should always keep some disadvantages, like bad piloting and research.

Tossing in some ideas for ER:
Enhanced defensive algorithms: increases defensive troops (early-mid game)
Geothermic Exobot Extensions: increased production on inferno planets (mid game)
Advanced Radiation Shielding: increased population on radiated planets (mid game)
Superior asteroid adaption: increased population on asteroids (mid-late game)
Exobot miniturisation: increased population on non-asteroids (late game)

With GEE and ARS refinements, exobots will remain a good choice for the inferno/radiated environment niches, maybe we could also have a barren environment refinement. SAA and EM keep exobots competitive in later game stages (so they don't have to go to the concentration camps...).
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#6 Post by ThinkSome »

The Silent One wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 1:29 pm...adaption...[
Hmm, I'm now curious... is this actually correct english-wise? Shouldn't it be "adaptation"?

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#7 Post by Oberlus »

ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 3:10 pm
The Silent One wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 1:29 pm...adaption...[
Hmm, I'm now curious... is this actually correct english-wise? Shouldn't it be "adaptation"?
https://www.wordreference.com/es/transl ... d=adaption

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

Concerning point 2), for long time exobot were the only radiated planet species. And I think that was better than what we have now. Having the only good species available which can live on radiated planets is a huge boost for replicon - that they cant make better use of exobots is a good trade off for that. That does not mean that exobots cant be adequate on all planet types. Replicon, go home (somewhere else)!
Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:47 am Ophiuchus (agrrr3) made a comment in the PR. I have incorporated the answer of the "2)" point of his comment to the OP argumentation, but the following point needs debate here:
Ophiuchus (agrrr3) wrote:AFAICS Planetary Ecology and one late 1HS (e.g. a growth special) would be enough for asteroids.
According to https://www.freeorion.org/index.php/Eff ... ard_Values I think we are both off.

Poor planets have a base malus of -2 HS, and asteroid belts have size 3, asteroids start at -6 pop for Exobots. Then we get:

Poor pop (*0.75): -4.5 pop
One robotic growth special (if any in the map) (+3): -1.5 pop.
Subterrean Habitation (24RP, +3): 1.5 pop

If no growth special available, symbiotic_bio (100RP) also leads to a positive population (0.25 pop).

Yes, this is about timing of having exobots especially combined with costs for flat-bonus tech.
Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 10:47 am
Ophiuchus (agrrr3) wrote:On a side note most part of pop-based industry on asteroids gets reduced by about 63%.
I don't understand. -63% industry with respect to what?
Relative to what you get currently. Usually one would use asteroids for industry. With bad population and bad industry you probably totally rely on the flat bonuses. A tall empire would probably not want exobots (which could be fine).

I do not have an opinion here. I just strongly advise to playtest this heavily before merging, e.g. in a multiplayer game, because it is not so easy to analyze.

Please do not try to complicate the pop techs based on metabolism without a gameplay reason.
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#9 Post by Oberlus »

We have Replicon and Trith, so not that special Radiated right now.
This PR is for current game state, which is not the one without Radiated playable species.
We have plans to add more species, anyways.
Exobots are still the only species that can inhabit asteroids.
And, again, if we make Exobots Radiated, that does not allow to solve the problem of bad starts and players willing to concede or stop playing because of unlucky starts.

Agree on the rest. However is way easier to playtest things that are merged (although this one does not require recompilation). I would really like to have an edge branch...

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 5:31 pm We have Replicon and Trith, so not that special Radiated right now.
Trith (RADIATED_NARROW) are not good for mixing with other species, so sharing the niche with the only species those mix well (exobot) is kind of different than Replicon empires.
Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 5:31 pm And, again, if we make Exobots Radiated, that does not allow to solve the problem of bad starts and players willing to concede or stop playing because of unlucky starts.
Yes, I said so in my post.
Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 5:31 pm I would really like to have an edge branch...
Agreed; I can provide that via snap for most linux. With windows and MacOS I cant help.
If one is crazy enough one could try to run freeorion on linux via a xserver/WSL/WSL2 directly from a windows 10 system. Much easier to build for windows i guess.
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Fri May 01, 2020 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#11 Post by The Silent One »

ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 3:10 pmHmm, I'm now curious... is this actually correct english-wise? Shouldn't it be "adaptation"?
Yes, that sounds better. Not a native speaker. Anyway, that's just a bunch of crude, random ideas.
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 5:47 pm Trith (RADIATED_NARROW) are not good for mixing with other species, so sharing the niche with the only species those mix well (exobot) is kind of different than Replicon empires.
More reasons to not make Exobots radiated.

So, all in all, do you have any objection to block the PR?

Edit: I mean, there is people that see this as straight away good for gameplay, and people that advises to playtest it. I say merge it for full playtesting. But I would like to do that after v0.4.10

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 6:36 pm So, all in all, do you have any objection to block the PR?
As already stated:
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 5:03 pm I do not have an opinion here. I just strongly advise to playtest this heavily before merging, e.g. in a multiplayer game, because it is not so easy to analyze.
I do not have the time to analyse, so I do not have objections. I just found your analysis to be incomplete.

If you are willing to clean up if this does not go as intended it I do not mind this to be merged into master after branching of 0.4.10
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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#14 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 9:09 pm If you are willing to clean up if this does not go as intended
Sure! Granted.

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Re: Rebalance Exobots and decouple NAI and AA

#15 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 9:52 am PR#2916 makes Exobots adequate at all planet environments (asteroids remain poor and gas giants uninhabitable), and reduce the research investment required by unlocking them with Nascent AI, NAI, and Nanotech Production (instead of current requirement Adaptice Automation, AA). The research of Exobots is increased from 50 to 60, but that is debatable and subject to future rebalancing
It also decouples AA from NAI by removing the latter from the tech requirements of the former and adding instead Algorithmic Elegance.
While I like this idea, and I think, suggested something similar, but I was under the impression that we were going to go with Envirobrains and Harmonoliths for the non exobot environments as per this thread, or are they off the table for now?
The Silent One wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 1:29 pm
ThinkSome wrote: Fri May 01, 2020 11:43 amI think that being able to improve Exobots beyond average industry/res/piloting/... will result in everyone populating everything with them.
A fair point, and to prevent exobot spamming, exobot refinements (ER) should be limited in number and effect, and powerful refinements should be costly so that they only become available in late-game. Exobots should always keep some disadvantages, like bad piloting and research.

Tossing in some ideas for ER:
Enhanced defensive algorithms: increases defensive troops (early-mid game)
Geothermic Exobot Extensions: increased production on inferno planets (mid game)
Advanced Radiation Shielding: increased population on radiated planets (mid game)
Superior asteroid adaption: increased population on asteroids (mid-late game)
Exobot miniturisation: increased population on non-asteroids (late game)

With GEE and ARS refinements, exobots will remain a good choice for the inferno/radiated environment niches, maybe we could also have a barren environment refinement. SAA and EM keep exobots competitive in later game stages (so they don't have to go to the concentration camps...).
Personally I'd be reluctant to give them double increased population on radiated planets, and instead have Advanced Radiation Shielding give an increase to production on radiated planets. Namely I think that goes a bit against the spirit of the idea that they don't get any environment as "Good". I'm also not sure how I feel about Exobot Miniaturization for similar reasons.

Some more ideas for ER in the vein of your suggestions:
Improved Vacuum Engineering: increased production on barren planets (mid game).
Exobot Combat Chassis: increases offensive troops, requires Enhanced Defensive Algorithms and at least one other tech (mid-late game).
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