SpaceCombat Counters

[ErikAlbert]

There have being debates about ship roles and limiting allowed weapons and so on, but i think most people don't like this idea. so basically weapons wise, you are allowed to mix and match.

The question then goes, if you can mix and match weapons without compromising RPS (or at least compromising it seriously), why not defenses like shields and armor?

The first reason i can think of is tradition. It seems weird to have multiple shields types on one ship, can someone think of any example where this is done in some game or ficitional story?

The second reason is that I think such an asymmetry where you can mix and match weapons but not defenses is actually a good idea.

[Krikkitone]

Well I would allow mixing+matching, but I think one of the things that is needed is some forms of synergy between different systems on the ship... partially based on the strategy for the weapon

ie a Spinal mounted weapon relies heavily on the maneuverability of the ship, Smaller more individually maneuverable weapons need more speed and less maneuverability for the whole ship, they also need more 'close in defenses'

Missile ships don't need as many close in defenses, because they don't intend to be close to their targets.

The main issue seems to be with the problem of shields and armor STACKING, because if I can combine a Class I shield with another Class I shield, why not combine it with a Class 3 shield instead

MOO2 is actually a good case of multiple defensive systems,

Displacement field (30% no hit)
Class X shield OR Damper field
Lightning shield (stops X% of missiles)

3 Damage stopping/ avoidance systems Besides armor that all operated independently and in a stackable manner.

(or for that matter a Class X planetary Shield + a Barrier Shield)

Gal Civ 2 has a system that stacks defenses I know (you can have any number of Missile + Beam shields on your ship that it has space for)

[Zpock]

Ships with only one type of weapons are boring. There should be some incentive to at least have something like beams vs smaller targets and missiles for big targets. Otherwise the ship would be a sitting duck to the other kind of target. There could be some kind of synergies between having 2 weapons on a ship too, like one weapon that makes the enemy an easier target by slowing it so a weapon that has a hard time hitting moving targets will work better.

[marhawkman]

MOO2 is actually a good case of multiple defensive systems,

Displacement field (30% no hit)
Class X shield OR Damper field
Lightning shield (stops X% of missiles)

3 Damage stopping/ avoidance systems Besides armor that all operated independently and in a stackable manner.

HAH!!! There's more than that!!!

Death10(doomstar)(I had to make ten versions as my miniaturization improved)
Weapons:
Stellar converter
Stellar converter
Stellar converter
Stellar converter
Stellar converter
22 Phasors Pd, CO, SP, AF
3 Phasors Pd

Special Equipment:
Automated repair unit
Battle pods
damperfield(good but not necessary)
Displacement device(this says "I don't care if your chance to hit is 500%, you're STILL gonna miss me 30% of the time")
Energy absorber
Heavy Armor
Reinforced Hull
Structural Analyzer(The only thing I know of that can increase the damage of the Converters)

I used Energy Absorber instead of the lightning field thing. defense AND offense. but you'll also notice Heavy Armor, reinforced hull, and Battlepods. Those I found more useful in game than the more "geewhiz" defensive items. But I really prefer the idea of having multiples of an item. Why wouldn't you be able to mount two shielding generators? Or add two layers of armor instead of just one?

[Geoff the Medio]

Ships with only one type of weapons are boring. There should be some incentive to at least have something like beams vs smaller targets and missiles for big targets. Otherwise the ship would be a sitting duck to the other kind of target.

Individual ships with single weapons could be boring, but generally one would build more than one kind of ship, and would use ships in mixed groups and/or against different targets. Yes, a ship with only a single kind of weapon would be vulnerable to certain other weapons... but that's part of the point of the restriction. It forces the player to have a variety of ships and to use them strategically according to their strengths and weaknesses.

It can be thought of like SMAC units, or units in Civ games, or something like Warcraft, where a unit typically has only one type of defense and attack, aside from special abilities. FO, like SMAC, would allow one to mix and match different parts, but unlike SMAC (and really, SMAX as well, aside from trivial exceptions) the parts wouldn't be just better versions of the previous part with no real strategic differentiation.

[ewh02b]

one of the best ways to encourage multiple weapon types is by imposing two limitations on weapons: energy requirement, and space requirement. lasers take up very little space, but a lot of energy, so you can only mount so many of them. missiles take up very little energy, but a lot of space (for ammo storage), so you can only equip so many missiles. a ship built using only one or the other will do less damage (because of mounting fewer weapons) than a ship built using both types of weapons.

[marhawkman]

one of the best ways to encourage multiple weapon types is by imposing two limitations on weapons: energy requirement, and space requirement. lasers take up very little space, but a lot of energy, so you can only mount so many of them. missiles take up very little energy, but a lot of space (for ammo storage), so you can only equip so many missiles. a ship built using only one or the other will do less damage (because of mounting fewer weapons) than a ship built using both types of weapons.

OR... You could use additional techs to make the beams work better.

[Krikkitone]

one of the best ways to encourage multiple weapon types is by imposing two limitations on weapons: energy requirement, and space requirement. lasers take up very little space, but a lot of energy, so you can only mount so many of them. missiles take up very little energy, but a lot of space (for ammo storage), so you can only equip so many missiles. a ship built using only one or the other will do less damage (because of mounting fewer weapons) than a ship built using both types of weapons.

Actually I don't think we Want to encourage multiple weapon types on the same ship.

I think we want to encourage multiple weapon use in the game (no clear superiority of one weapon type over another) and I think that will do best with Specialized ships (not to mention that makes combat more interesting if you actually have different types of ships on the field.)

[ewh02b]

Actually I don't think we Want to encourage multiple weapon types on the same ship.

Why not? By providing a 2D tradeoff like I mentioned, or possibly even a 3D tradeoff between weapon classes, it promotes a diversity of weapons. If you only have "energy" as a constraint, for example, then a ship with missiles (using little energy) will be able to pack a lot more punch than a laser ship, leading to everyone going for the best missiles. On the other hand, if you use "space" as the key constraint, then lasers may be more deadly, and used exclusively, since missiles are slow and bulky.

So, please answer my question. Why do we want specialized ships?

[marhawkman]

Actually I don't think we Want to encourage multiple weapon types on the same ship.

Why not? By providing a 2D tradeoff like I mentioned, or possibly even a 3D tradeoff between weapon classes, it promotes a diversity of weapons. If you only have "energy" as a constraint, for example, then a ship with missiles (using little energy) will be able to pack a lot more punch than a laser ship, leading to everyone going for the best missiles. On the other hand, if you use "space" as the key constraint, then lasers may be more deadly, and used exclusively, since missiles are slow and bulky.

So, please answer my question. Why do we want specialized ships?

Because, tailoring the ship around the use of one weapon makes it's offensive abilities far more potent. If you'd played Stars! you'd know how ships are either Beam based or torpedo based in that game. Splitting between the two weapon types is only effective on Starbases. I do usually have a few Gatling weapons on my torpedo Battleships, but that's because the AI's love minefields, and I usually only have 2.

[utilae]

one of the best ways to encourage multiple weapon types is by imposing two limitations on weapons: energy requirement, and space requirement.

This won't work. Energy turns out to be the same as space.

eg
If a weapon requires alot of energy, it means you need some space for a better powerplanet to give it more energy. So really, energy is space.

[ewh02b]

one of the best ways to encourage multiple weapon types is by imposing two limitations on weapons: energy requirement, and space requirement.

This won't work. Energy turns out to be the same as space.

eg
If a weapon requires alot of energy, it means you need some space for a better powerplanet to give it more energy. So really, energy is space.

Well, if you wanted only energy weapons, then the ship would have to upgrade its reactor, sure. But a ship using a mix of weapons would have enough juice to fire its energy weapons, while still having space for missile weapons.

Why do aircraft carriers carry a half-dozen or more types of aircraft? Because they are deadlier that way. Why do the cruisers protecting the carrier have guns, SAM, SAS, and torpedoes? because they are deadlier that way.

You also should keep in mind, missile-craft can run out of ammo, while a combined-arms ship will still have some weapons available.

And finally, MOO is not Stars, and does not have to be.

[marhawkman]

Well, if you wanted only energy weapons, then the ship would have to upgrade its reactor, sure. But a ship using a mix of weapons would have enough juice to fire its energy weapons, while still having space for missile weapons.

Why do aircraft carriers carry a half-dozen or more types of aircraft? Because they are deadlier that way. Why do the cruisers protecting the carrier have guns, SAM, SAS, and torpedoes? because they are deadlier that way.

You also should keep in mind, missile-craft can run out of ammo, while a combined-arms ship will still have some weapons available.

And finally, MOO is not Stars, and does not have to be.

You're missing something here. What is the "Primary armament"? Aircraft Carriers have multiple types of craft, but they don't use them in equal numbers or equally often. Torpedos? don't remember those on Cruisers.... But the thing here is that the Cruiser's main guns don't work against Aircraft, thus they have other weapons. Cruisers don't use SAMs on other cruisers they use the Cannons. The SAMs are more like the PD weapons in SE.

[ErikAlbert]

The main issue seems to be with the problem of shields and armor STACKING, because if I can combine a Class I shield with another Class I shield, why not combine it with a Class 3 shield instead

MOO2 is actually a good case of multiple defensive systems,

Displacement field (30% no hit)
Class X shield OR Damper field
Lightning shield (stops X% of missiles)

I'm quite okay in Moo2 with Lightning shield and Displacement shield because they were relatively high end one off techs that didn't improve.

Damper shield was a special tech from the antares right?

I think the problem becomes a lot more clear if you are allowed to stack both Class X shields and Damper shields (block 75% damage), or any other combination of normal shield types that can be improved.

Up thread there is a discussion of different shield effects (equations), I love this idea very much, but if you are allowed to stack 2 shield types, you would get a unkillable ship pretty easily.

Another problem is with multiple shields and armor, you need to have some system to decide which layer gets hit first. It's okay in Moo2 where you had limited types... But if you are envisioning multiple shield types...

3 Damage stopping/ avoidance systems Besides armor that all operated independently and in a stackable manner.

The existence of armor and shield layers is an accepted cliche in 4x space games. And shields/armor work similarly enough that they don't affect RPS. You can think of armor just as another shield layer.

Adding 2 shields layers each which have very different strengths is a completely different thing.

[ErikAlbert]

Note that while it is true that Moo2 offered different defensive items, most of them were high end tech, and more importantly one off tech. I.E You couldn't improve lightning shield or displacement device.

There was only one shield system which everyone used.

If we are talking about multiple shield systems in FOO, each which is improvable on its own, Moo2 is not comparable at all.

Displacement field (30% no hit)
Class X shield OR Damper field
Lightning shield (stops X% of missiles)
Automated repair unit
damperfield(good but not necessary)
Displacement device(this says "I don't care if your chance to hit is 500%, you're STILL gonna miss me 30% of the time")
Energy absorber
Heavy Armor
Reinforced Hull

Heavy armor, reinforced hull, automated repair unit is basically just armor.

hard shields, energy absrober is basically normal shields

None of these really give you another shield/armor type effect.

The only really claim that MooII allows you to create a ship with multiple shield types is if you use Lightning shield or displacement device. And those are not something you get until late in the game, and they are just special one off tech, not normal shield/defense types that are improvable.

If you want to think multiple shield types think of a MooII, where
you had

Shields (Class I to X) - Absorbs up to X times ship size, regenerates 1/3 of strongest shield facing
Lightning field (Class I to X) - Field has x% of automatically destorying each missile, torpedo, or fighter attempting to strike the equipped ship
Damper shield (Class I to X) - Dampers out X% damage
Displacement device (Class I to X) - Any weapon has X% of missing a ship that is equipped with a displacement device.


X% increases as the class increases of course. Now imagine if you could stack these shields....