What is the deal with starlanes?

[Bastian-Bux]

Hmm, this is #1 on the FAQ .

Yes, its possible. Its open source, so everything you want (and can code) is possible.

Though afaik this option wont be included in any oficial FO releases, at least till 1.0

[Daveybaby]

Is it possible to include a starlane option that connects all stars to each other and makes them invisible that would be available for a multiplayer game only? In other words, no AI empires are present at all, kinda like the way the majority of multiplayer MOO2 games are played on Kali.

I kinda answered this a few pages back, but to reiterate, my point was that, if youre using a highly connected invisible starlane map to simulate Moo1/Moo2 style travel, then you still have all of the issues associated with that kind of travel, i.e. you need a new pathfinding AI, a new strategic AI, plus you need to rebalance the whole offense/defense thing (i.e. the power of system defences vs mobile fleets).

[Gusset]

Is it possible to include a starlane option that connects all stars to each other and makes them invisible that would be available for a multiplayer game only? In other words, no AI empires are present at all, kinda like the way the majority of multiplayer MOO2 games are played on Kali.

I kinda answered this a few pages back, but to reiterate, my point was that, if youre using a highly connected invisible starlane map to simulate Moo1/Moo2 style travel, then you still have all of the issues associated with that kind of travel, i.e. you need a new pathfinding AI, a new strategic AI, plus you need to rebalance the whole offense/defense thing (i.e. the power of system defences vs mobile fleets).

Thanks, but you must have missed the part of my question that specified that such an option would be available for a multiplayer game only, no AI empires present (hence no need for a new strategic AI).

Anyway, the pat answer seems to be that a mod will likely be made for some version of this idea.

I am interested in any comments regarding other known/designed aspects of the game, such as the current direction of fuel and ship range concepts, and how they might fit, independent of AI issues. I'll try to dig a bit to find out for myself, but it has occurred to me that other aspects of the game design may be totally incompatible with the concept to begin with.

[Bastian-Bux]

They are. We had a heated discussion about starlanes vs. open space more then a year ago. Our final decision was to go with starlanes, for AI reasons. All other design parts reflect that decision, and a modder who wishes to do otherwise will have to redesign quit a bit of the game as daveybaby already pointed out. ^^

[Black_Dawn]

I don't mind starlanes, but I don't like the the idea that even at the highest tech level it will take many MANY turns for a ship to travel from one end of your galaxy spanning empire to the other. Could we have some kind of ultra expensive tech like "Artificial Wormhole Generator" as one of the disgustingly powerful end-game techs? Every planet that wanted to benefit from it would have to build one, and they would be the expense equivilent of, say, a Star Fortress. Travel between one planet with an "Artificial Wormhole Generator" and any other would only take 1-3 turns depending on distance. This would add an interesting mechanic late game, and could be one of the "game winning" techs for a certain tech path (mercantile path?).

On top of everything else, I think you would hear a lot less whining about Starlanes if you implemented this idea.

[noelte]

... Could we have some kind of ultra expensive tech like "Artificial Wormhole Generator" as one of the disgustingly powerful end-game techs? ...

simply say stargate. I guess we will have them. But imo we will never have some thech which allows to drop into a system on your likeing. The target has always to know that someone might stop by

BTW: if you have a 1000 lightyear/turn warp drive, you might be able to reach distant system within 1-3 turns

[Black_Dawn]

BTW: if you have a 1000 lightyear/turn warp drive, you might be able to reach distant system within 1-3 turns

No you wouldn't. REASON: Even if you can travel through any length starlane in 1 turn, it's still a matter of "connecting the dots", that is going from one star to the next to the next etc. in order to reach the other side of the galaxy. There are only two workarounds I can see for this:

1) Wormholes and Stargate tech described in my last post.

2) When you want to travel to a distant location, you select your ship and its final destination. The game automatically figures out the fastest route through the starlane system, and allows the ship to stay in "hyperspace" even when it enters a star system, and continue along the route designated by the game. You probably wouldn't be able to travel accross the galaxy in a straight line, but at least you'd get there without any special tech. In other words, you could travel through several star systems without stopping if you have the appropriate speed. You would not be able to travel through unfriendly space in this way.

[Zeno]

How about having starlanes-only versus the AI, but optional in MP? The host would decide whether to have them.

[Geoff the Medio]

...you select your ship and its final destination. The game automatically figures out the fastest route through the starlane system...
[...]
...you could travel through several star systems without stopping...

This is already how the game works. There is not yet any built in distinction between "hyperspace" and not. A ship can pass through a starsystem without stopping. Parts of this could potentially change in future versions, and will likely be discussion when space combat and related ships issues are discussed.

How about having starlanes-only versus the AI, but optional in MP? The host would decide whether to have them.

There will be starlanes in v1.0 of FreeOrion. There will not be an option to turn them off, as the game will be designed around the existance of starlanes, and will not function without them.

[Sinister]

I know this comment is out of place, but i have to say this even though it wont change anything. I HATE STARLANES..

why?.. well its just not reality. If we had the real technological means we wouldnt need to use these starlanes.. we would just travel to the star we want and period. Sure some of you have stated that if we remove the starlanes it would be a huge blob and there would be no terrain... YEAH.. its space!!!.. there is no terrain. And i know some of you may start to roll your eyes right now.. but just listen to me for a while..

I know AI is a tricky thing.. and i know FreeOrion is currently using Starlanes.. (just hope they dont use that name).. and im ok with it.

But what ever happened to saying whats wrong with having no terrain, we dont value space as a flat surface.. its totaly different what we would take in to account are the basics, what makes a system important?.. strategy = the location of the system (distance from system to enemy system). This if its a system thats close to an enemy system then it should be called a "border system" meaning its likely to be the first system to be attacked and is where i should place an interceptor fleet. Other values on each system make it important such as production and planet size. So could and AI work with these parameters and generate a strategy??:. i dont know, but when we play real-time strategy games the computer never understands "borders" yet it manages to do fine in AI strategy.

Point being, do i think starlanes are a necesary part of space combat?.. No!
I rather have that blob of planets like in MooI, where my limits where the range of my starship fuels.

Also.. computer can learn about territory... remember Civ? .. mainly CIV II. The computer generated an area around each city, creating a virtual area that belonged to the player.. many cities put together formed what the computer understood was the nation. Also understood that if it entered that territory it was in enemy territory.

Thats all i had to say.. im not being stupid.. (at least i think, im not..) i am greatfull for all the work these people have put into making FreeOrion a reality and i respect everyones point of view.. but as i said .. this feature i was never a fan of.

[Bastian-Bux]

Sinister, prior to posting you should follow this order:

1.) Read the post
2.) Think about it
3a.) If you don't understand it, go back to 1
3b.) If you did understand it, think if you have something new and important to contribute to the discussion
4.) Post your new and important ideas


It seems you already failed in 1.)

[guiguibaah]

This post is mostly directed to sinister, but I just wanted to itinerate to those that hate starlanes, that being creative in designing starlanes one could have the best of both worlds. Instead of a direct line from Star A to Star B, you could have a group of nodes between star A and Star B of empty space.

(Empty space being a "star" gamewise, but instead of the game displaying a star it displays, well, nothing. That and there aren't any planets either).


So rather than

A -------------------- B

You have



A ------ 0 ------ 0 ---+|
+----0--------0--+
+--0-------B

Plus it makes it easier to blockade a system

[Geoff the Medio]

In order to better justify the use of starlanes, or if you prefer, make use of fact that they're going to be in the game, I've written up some musings on stuff to do in-game with starlanes here:

http://www.freeorion.org/index.php/User ... _Visbility

In particular, the Starlane Visbility and Starlane Construction / Destruction stuff is relevant, though I do tie in some of the other stuff to the starlanes ideas as well. If implemented, some of this stuff could make some different / interesting strategies possible.

[Sinister]

1)-- i did read everything.... and beleive or not i UNDERSTOOD everything in it.... and i know that i didnt add anything new.

penalize me for speeking my mind then. Im never rude.. but whats the deal on jumping on everyones last comment.. so chill..

Yeah, i get the whole notion of Starlanes and how they work, and to add to Gui's comment its not only good for easier system blockade but its also good for creating what i would call "fortress systems" that would block enemies from entering lesser protected systems..

but my point was.. does it seem realistic??..

ah.. so i'll shut my pie-hole for now.

Thanx guys.

[Geoff the Medio]

but my point was.. does it seem realistic??..

Given that we currently don't know of any way to travel faster than light, timely interstellar travel only by starlanes is equally as "realistic" as travel without them.

Also, see the realism policy: viewtopic.php?t=638