Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

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Adamant
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Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#1 Post by Adamant » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:51 pm

We know all that Galaxies spinnn - out Star eg about 12 Times in total around Galaxy Center in about 5 Billion Years - so we may like to let the StarMap resp Galaxy spin on the StarMap. Due to Scope of Time that Move is somewhat unlikely even while GOV single Activities to get noted but due to KISS we may consider another Spin-Rate with Fun for the Player seeing the Map rather slowly rotating eg. for 1% 2pi per Turn, Matter of Transformation of Coords is trivial, the new Point is perhaps the Dynamic self, as when Map generated it was before rather static while there are Features to add artifical Planets to a Star which address another Scope of Game. Sure it is possible anyway but I do not have Idea about present Code what it takes and Constraints for Dynamic I consider to be vital for the Game as eg Giant Stars may nova here and there mixing up Matter. More interesting is the galactic central giant BlackHole (there is surely one in FO, isn't it? :) so we have any big attractor there and we may consider minor Attractores resp BlackHoles which offer a lesser static Environment for the Game .. I stop here with dynamic Enhancements and return to static Map just point-symmetric to central BH tranformed brief Spinn) and for BH ... would prefer if that ArtWork for BH could get integrated into BackGround Image as Effect of Space Time what means Kind of invisible CrystalBall resp that strong Effects that you can not see it but see that you dont see it when you see a black Hole there were around you can see something. That would shift Matter of BH Presentation to the CodeWorkSection and due to it behaves dynamic to BackGround it offer more Diversification then best paintd BH as can as OverLay.

Btw BH as Stellar Special means Kind of Opportunity for Science similar to Planet with odd Axis.. so identfied another Special I the Game we do not have to wonder so much what it is. Relates to SpaceTime, SpaceTopology, TimeFlow, N-Dim Space and results by Force Gravity while SpaceIssue concerns to all other Physics. Slope Planet-Axis is boring compared with. How about increased Need for Fuel in close Distance? So it is also Kind of expensive to obtain ROI from.

In that Context see this:

Image

Please add many BG Galaxies into BackGround! Would consider Code to generate them in visible Variation: Size and Orientation, Param are disk-diameter,bulk-diameter and color instead adding 1000 Pics resp a Dozen, Star could be Bulk without Disk - I miss that Giants appear not larger than the Dwarfs ... the Giants are effective colder while lesser bride per Surface-Area what means a much smaller large blue Star is hotter (Blue) while the Giant blow up and get colder outside (red) and thus lesser lite what means that we take eg for blue small 0x0000FF while the large Giant is perhaps 0x3F0000 what means it does not change whole StarMap into lighting Area - we can explain with Kind of SunGlass-Issue that it is not 0xFF0000. Useful could be to have SLIDER (..) like Thing to contrl Opening of vitual TeleScope the Player looks through his GUI and we consider Artefacts from Overlightning while those who Objects who are darker gets dark till invisible - kind of virtual TeleScope - CFG OPT to normalize Screen resp Objects possible that all Objects appear same Size or same lite. Would make Game feel better. BTT

Please look out for that large Amount of Images we can dig inside to see top-top-objects as moderate looks in most Cases already really impressive. Btw found above with KeyWords Sagitarius Black Hole Star Sequence with a lot of other curious cosmic Stuff.
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#2 Post by shawndream » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:20 am

Spinning the map around on the user will just cause confusion.

Try Sins of a Solar empire, they did a good job there and it's still confusing.
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Adamant
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#3 Post by Adamant » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:01 pm

Oh, it's a commercial Game which gain most Attraction from Players in Sector Space Strategy Games!
Perhaps would Players like rotating Map?
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eleazar
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#4 Post by eleazar » Tue Jan 14, 2014 4:00 pm

Gameplay comes first, not realism.

And if you want to get down to it, motion and rotation are relative. Since the entire game's context is a single galaxy, it would be senseless to show it's rotation relative to other points in space which have no bearing on the game.

Anyway, i've heard a lot of praise for SoaSE, but never heard the rotating map mentioned before. I strongly suspect if the rotating map is not a negative, it comes far down the list of Sin's virtues.

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Adamant
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#5 Post by Adamant » Wed Jan 15, 2014 6:37 pm

Interesting Point. Did you read that I wrote that our StarSystem moved while about 5 Billions Years
Existence just about 12 Times around galactic Center? Rotating Galaxy in Scope of GameTime is
totally irreal and therefor absolute suited for FO! Did I miss something? Yes, Reason was Fun!
eleazar wrote:Anyway, i've heard a lot of praise for SoaSE, but never heard the rotating map mentioned before. I strongly suspect if the rotating map is not a negative, it comes far down the list of Sin's virtues.
I feel now confused... is that SoaSE-sim-sa-la-bim Reference for good Quality of features and do it not due to SoaSE did it before or is it Reference for bad Quality do not due to SoaSE did it before or even both? What does it matter then and why you are always talking about SoaSE? I dont care about that Game! Just want to know if SoaSE is good or is bad.
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eleazar
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#6 Post by eleazar » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:12 pm

Look, i'm glad you are interested in our project, and i know learning a second language is hard, but you are communicating very poorly. Many of your sentences are incomprehensible. Often i can guess at a phrase, but it doesn't usually fit together to produce a meaningful whole.


You need to work harder to communicate, or be content to be ignored, since communication isn't happening.

I would suggest using fewer abbreviations and coloquial expressions. Try being more formal: complete sentences, state things plainly. I get the impression that you are trying to inject a lot of personality into the way you write, but it just ends up making things confusing.

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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#7 Post by shawndream » Thu Jan 16, 2014 5:12 pm

Adamant wrote: I feel now confused... is that SoaSE-sim-sa-la-bim Reference for good Quality of features and do it not due to SoaSE did it before or is it Reference for bad Quality do not due to SoaSE did it before or even both? What does it matter then and why you are always talking about SoaSE? I dont care about that Game! Just want to know if SoaSE is good or is bad.
I brought it up here, because it had a map that the user could rotate freely as they moved and zoomed around.

It was a very cool 3d effect, but it was harmful to playing the game because it made it harder to find your units and colonies when the universe kept flipping around on you.

I will often use other space 4x games as examples where they might help illustrate the problems to avoid or strengths to match.
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Adamant
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#8 Post by Adamant » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:10 pm

exist there patch for?
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#9 Post by adrian_broher » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:36 pm

Adamant wrote:exist there patch for?
A patch that implements that implements what exactly? Are you still talking about self-rotating and/or dynamic galaxies? Or a galaxy map that could be rotated by the user? I am not aware of any patch that implements this feature.

I'm still not convinced what you really want, so I just assume you're talking about the following three variants of the concept you described.

Galaxies that change over time either by self rotation and/or the movement of the systems within the galaxy could cause confusion for the player especially if those changes are rapid. So personally I wouldn't consider implementing this feature for now unless it would add also other gameplay related effects (dissolving or creation of star lanes, system collisions with system elimination or unification, … would come in mind) that would add some kind of entertainment.

Another point are camera controls that allow free or stepped rotation around the normal of the plane where the systems are located. Usually something like this kind of control is used in games when objects that are relevant for the gameplay can occlude each other (e.g. an enemy or an item behind a wall from the camera point of view). Currently this isn't the case for FreeOrion. All objects a located on the same depth plane from the camera point of view. So this would add a feature that needs to be implemented, tested and maintained while not giving any gameplay advantage. I personally don't share the opinion of shawndream that controls could lead to confused and disoriented players, but that from somebody who enjoy(s/ed) fast paced multiplayer egoshooters where you need to have a skill to navigate through 3d space.

One last interpretation would be the placement of the systems within the galaxy. Currently we place all systems on one plane and have an orthogonal top projection of this plane with serveral parallax layers of far away stars below this system plane. One thing I could think of to improve the graphical representation is to place the sytems within a certain depth above or below this plane (the best equivalent I can think of is a water pool with with balls swimming in them, that are raised / or lowered by waves). This in combination with a perspective view of the camera, which is still looking top down on the space map like it already does could add a bit of additional depth without disrupting the gameplay too much. So this would be a pure graphical/cosmetic solution which I would personally like. Because I will be honest: sometime FreeOrion has the charm of a spreadsheet application. It's to static, to value oriented and is missing some nice visualization that would prettify the gameplay.
Last edited by adrian_broher on Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adamant
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#10 Post by Adamant » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:34 pm

shawndream wrote:
Adamant wrote: I feel now confused... is that SoaSE-sim-sa-la-bim Reference for good Quality of features and do it not due to SoaSE did it before or is it Reference for bad Quality do not due to SoaSE did it before or even both? What does it matter then and why you are always talking about SoaSE? I dont care about that Game! Just want to know if SoaSE is good or is bad.
I brought it up here, because it had a map that the user could rotate freely as they moved and zoomed around.

It was a very cool 3d effect, but it was harmful to playing the game because it made it harder to find your units and colonies when the universe kept flipping around on you.

I will often use other space 4x games as examples where they might help illustrate the problems to avoid or strengths to match.

Does that refer to Kind of ArtWork or CodeWork?
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#11 Post by shawndream » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:04 pm

adrian_broher wrote:(dissolving or creation of star lanes, system collisions with system elimination or unification, … would come in mind) that would add some kind of entertainment.
That would be cool. We would need some way to indicate that a starlane is going to snap soon, or a plan on what to do with ships in transit, but I could see a slowly changing tactical map adding some interest. Not as much interest as shifting politics and geology of systems, but some.

adrian_broher wrote:I personally don't share the opinion of shawndream that controls could lead to confused and disoriented players, but that from somebody who enjoy(s/ed) fast paced multiplayer egoshooters where you need to have a skill to navigate through 3d space.
Mannn, even people I've never met can tell I'm terrible at FPS games! Yeah, my distaste is probably rooted in that, but I'm fine with requesting consideration for the reaction time and spatially impaired, as I would honor colorblindness and control issues of others.
adrian_broher wrote: Because I will be honest: sometime FreeOrion has the charm of a spreadsheet application. It's to static, to value oriented and is missing some nice visualization that would prettify the gameplay.
I'm fine with some nice visualization, layers of background stars shifting (I think they already do, but it's hard to notice), but as I mentioned before, some people can get sick when the background appears to zoom around. (Not me actually, I love that look, as long as it renders fast enough not to get in the way of gameplay).

The tough part is finding that good middle ground between pretty open space with freedom... and effectively lining up the planets for the player to easily scan and control. The freedom to choose any angle and focus point is great... but only a few angles and focus points are effective, so if the user isn't skilled at controlling it can be very frustrating for them.

I think getting the diplomatic stuff in game will help a lot to giving the players a narrative depth to the universe (Will my ally betray me, instead of, just whose fleet is bigger), but also the streamlining the visual look and window count would go a HUGE way towards immersion.
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#12 Post by shawndream » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:11 pm

Adamant wrote:
shawndream wrote: I will often use other space 4x games as examples where they might help illustrate the problems to avoid or strengths to match.

Does that refer to Kind of ArtWork or CodeWork?
I guess codework? Good visual appeal is important, but the user interface and features make or break a game for me. I still enjoy playing 320x240 and text games sometimes, if they are well done..
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#13 Post by shawndream » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:16 pm

shawndream wrote:
adrian_broher wrote:(dissolving or creation of star lanes, system collisions with system elimination or unification, … would come in mind) that would add some kind of entertainment.
That would be cool. We would need some way to indicate that a starlane is going to snap soon, or a plan on what to do with ships in transit, but I could see a slowly changing tactical map adding some interest. Not as much interest as shifting politics and geology of systems, but some.

Oooo, if the galaxies had spin so that the inside rotated one way and the outside another, any quadrant would find itself eventually a smear, with longer and longer borders. Eventually even an isolationist would see a lot of the galaxy in their orbit.
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#14 Post by Adamant » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:13 pm

Consider for easy Rotation Multiplication for Complex Numbers:

c1*c2= |c1|*|c2| * alpha_c1 * alpha_c2

means you need just a Vector2D and implement complex Multiplication and a Vector with Lenght=1 which represents the Angle you want to rotate the Position.

Transit Position regulary: pos1-pos0 : (c1-c0)*rot +c1 should do it.

v2d cmul (v2d& c2) { // c1*c2 = (a+bi) * (c+di) = ac-bd + adi+bci
v2d& c1 = *this; return * new v2d(c1.x*c2.x - c1.y*c2.y, c1.x*c2.y+c1.y*c2.x);
}
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Adamant
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Re: Dynamic resp rotating Galaxies

#15 Post by Adamant » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:05 pm

I would like more to see 3D Coords for Stars and new Z eg via RND which makes Lanes virtually different fast from projective View. EG Q&D Adaption via pos.z=rnd(-1.0,+1.0)*height/2;
That Way no Stars are at same Point of Projection.

Think you see a short Lane but due to large delta Z the Ship moves virtually slower on Projection. Our Galaxy has Diameter 100kLY (LightEra 100kY of LightWayLength) and Height IIRC 30kLY (3 LightEon) at Disk Center while external just about 10kLY (LightEon) resp one Star Height. Note Factor 10:1:3 for DiameterDisk and HeightDisk and DiamterBulk assumed as Kind of Normal and our Galaxy as normal. Curriously it have clerarly two Arms inside getting virtually 4 Arms outside.

If you can make Disk D:H 10:1 and Ball 10:3 put 2 or 4 (but not 3 please, that is realyl odd, even 6 are better) and fill that Space randomly with Stars, can help for suited phi-func for both disk and ball, also a Beam is no Problem - just the Spiral is just a little tricky -- do like Beam but rotate alpha by radius.
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