Ground Combat!
Moderator: Oberlus
Re: Ground Combat!
All this talk about colonists and slaves and propaganda sounds really more complicated than what it's worth. Why not just have all the colonists as bystanders?
Just have the civilians fighting represented as bonus troops. There can be lots of them, a few of them, better, worse, only works on Sundays... Conveniently, MOO2 comes to mind.
No appreciable number of colonists have to be lost unless you want them to, your choice. If you really want to see the battle take a toll on civilians, have some kind of aggression meter. You deserve some control over what kind of damage your troops are doing on the ground, right?
The big disappointment when I conquered stuff in MOO2 is that most aliens didn't contribute anything different to your empire. Human slaves were just as valuable as Mrsshan slaves and that didn't feel right. Bulrathi could always be used to colonize High-G worlds, and Sakkra slaves were very valuable, especially before you've researched agricultural technology. It gives a whole new reason to invade their colonies.
Just have the civilians fighting represented as bonus troops. There can be lots of them, a few of them, better, worse, only works on Sundays... Conveniently, MOO2 comes to mind.
No appreciable number of colonists have to be lost unless you want them to, your choice. If you really want to see the battle take a toll on civilians, have some kind of aggression meter. You deserve some control over what kind of damage your troops are doing on the ground, right?
The big disappointment when I conquered stuff in MOO2 is that most aliens didn't contribute anything different to your empire. Human slaves were just as valuable as Mrsshan slaves and that didn't feel right. Bulrathi could always be used to colonize High-G worlds, and Sakkra slaves were very valuable, especially before you've researched agricultural technology. It gives a whole new reason to invade their colonies.
- Robbie.Price
- Space Kraken
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:00 pm
Re: Ground Combat!
Goodmorning all,
I generally like everything which has been mentioned above by Geoff and all the rest.
I have only two - three quick things.
Firstly, i think there are two very different types of 'Ground Combat', only one of which seams to have made it from the previous 5 pages to this topic.
The first ground combat would be in space battle, objective based, combat turn by combat turn ground battle, abstracted out to a task bar on the planet which slides from 0 - complete / failure. Objectives for these types would be such things as . . . "Capture Ground Control for one or more Orbital defense platforms"(hard) "Destroy ground control for ...." *medium* *Target given 'special' structure to disable it(medium-hard) or to destruction (very hard)* *complete subgoal for some larger espionage mission (in spying certain missions might explicitly require a ground mission by troops to be completed)* . . . these mission would be undertaken by 'special forces' small teams of specifically trained troops for the given mission*it could be assumed that they are 'trained' for what ever mission they are used on*. These strike forces would be a ship special object possibly with a monetary activation cost or not. and would not help in capturing operations.
The second type of ground combat would be to gain *permanent(at least until the retaliation arrives)[also I'm working on a large diplomacy model which might make permanent a less accurate word but that's not for here]* control of the colony.
in this second case could i suggest that, just as taking over local space and breaking shields, ground combat could take multiple turns. Presumably an enemy who has just defeated your standing army, and finally made it though your shields, could then be defeated, or skirted around *A fast troop ship designed to 'run' enemy blockades* just in time to reinforce ground troops.
In my personal opinion, colonist vrs colonist battles should almost never occur, except in the case of two colony ships landing on the same turn and unable to resolve diplomatically. 'Colonists' in my mind are counted in millions, or even bigger numbers, and military troops to me come in sets of battalions, thousands- 10's of thousands. The idea of packing huge populations such as mentioned into ships, sending them across interstellar space partially armed, with the intention of using them to concur another planet which is pre-populated seams . . . unreasonable.
Military expansion is undertaken by military troops. One simple way to enforce this would be to not let colony ships land on planets with different base populations. *except natives? not sure where natives came from*. This is what MOO1-2 and GC, all did, probably others as well. Colonists could of course be used to defend a planet (with or without support from advanced troops) Edit, To a greater or lesser extent, depending on gov choises, race pixs, ect. of course peaceful races would not use colonists to defend a planent unless the colonists themselves were specifically targeted by invaders and could be targeted for termination by the attacking troops, or troops could just aim to replace governments [with some colonists resisting, .. . yada yada]. If the population is to be replaced, colony ships would remain in orbit until the previous population is completely destroyed.
Anyway I've typed too much, I'll let that idea fly for a while.
Best wishes all
Robbie
I generally like everything which has been mentioned above by Geoff and all the rest.
I have only two - three quick things.
Firstly, i think there are two very different types of 'Ground Combat', only one of which seams to have made it from the previous 5 pages to this topic.
The first ground combat would be in space battle, objective based, combat turn by combat turn ground battle, abstracted out to a task bar on the planet which slides from 0 - complete / failure. Objectives for these types would be such things as . . . "Capture Ground Control for one or more Orbital defense platforms"(hard) "Destroy ground control for ...." *medium* *Target given 'special' structure to disable it(medium-hard) or to destruction (very hard)* *complete subgoal for some larger espionage mission (in spying certain missions might explicitly require a ground mission by troops to be completed)* . . . these mission would be undertaken by 'special forces' small teams of specifically trained troops for the given mission*it could be assumed that they are 'trained' for what ever mission they are used on*. These strike forces would be a ship special object possibly with a monetary activation cost or not. and would not help in capturing operations.
The second type of ground combat would be to gain *permanent(at least until the retaliation arrives)[also I'm working on a large diplomacy model which might make permanent a less accurate word but that's not for here]* control of the colony.
in this second case could i suggest that, just as taking over local space and breaking shields, ground combat could take multiple turns. Presumably an enemy who has just defeated your standing army, and finally made it though your shields, could then be defeated, or skirted around *A fast troop ship designed to 'run' enemy blockades* just in time to reinforce ground troops.
In my personal opinion, colonist vrs colonist battles should almost never occur, except in the case of two colony ships landing on the same turn and unable to resolve diplomatically. 'Colonists' in my mind are counted in millions, or even bigger numbers, and military troops to me come in sets of battalions, thousands- 10's of thousands. The idea of packing huge populations such as mentioned into ships, sending them across interstellar space partially armed, with the intention of using them to concur another planet which is pre-populated seams . . . unreasonable.
Military expansion is undertaken by military troops. One simple way to enforce this would be to not let colony ships land on planets with different base populations. *except natives? not sure where natives came from*. This is what MOO1-2 and GC, all did, probably others as well. Colonists could of course be used to defend a planet (with or without support from advanced troops) Edit, To a greater or lesser extent, depending on gov choises, race pixs, ect. of course peaceful races would not use colonists to defend a planent unless the colonists themselves were specifically targeted by invaders and could be targeted for termination by the attacking troops, or troops could just aim to replace governments [with some colonists resisting, .. . yada yada]. If the population is to be replaced, colony ships would remain in orbit until the previous population is completely destroyed.
Anyway I've typed too much, I'll let that idea fly for a while.
Best wishes all
Robbie
Last edited by Robbie.Price on Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- Large Juggernaut
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Re: Ground Combat!
I like the idea of militia. I think it'd work very well with racial traits that modify it. (maybe traits that modify effectiveness of militia not the actual numbers?) Of course if your militia is TOO good it'll give people a reason to nuke your planets, but that would force them to recolonize the planet themselves.
I dislike the idea of having a distinction between colonists and population. it just seems far too micro-ey. and it effectively give you two races to work with.
But yes actual troops should be able to take militia at least 20-1.
as for forced relocation, I think it could work, just code a function to automatically relocate the people to the nearest planet/s.
I dislike the idea of having a distinction between colonists and population. it just seems far too micro-ey. and it effectively give you two races to work with.
But yes actual troops should be able to take militia at least 20-1.
as for forced relocation, I think it could work, just code a function to automatically relocate the people to the nearest planet/s.
Computer programming is fun.
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- Space Floater
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:35 pm
Re: Ground Combat!
Sure troops beat militia at 20-1 numbers, but each unit of population is a lot of people compared to a unit of troops so they make several militia units per population.marhawkman wrote:I like the idea of militia. I think it'd work very well with racial traits that modify it. (maybe traits that modify effectiveness of militia not the actual numbers?) Of course if your militia is TOO good it'll give people a reason to nuke your planets, but that would force them to recolonize the planet themselves.
I dislike the idea of having a distinction between colonists and population. it just seems far too micro-ey. and it effectively give you two races to work with.
But yes actual troops should be able to take militia at least 20-1.
as for forced relocation, I think it could work, just code a function to automatically relocate the people to the nearest planet/s.
You should also be able to fund the militia, the more funding more modern weaponry the militia has,the better it's battle factors. The downside should be that if there's a revolt the rebels have the same factors as your militia.
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- Space Krill
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Re: Ground Combat!
I like this. It's the simple militia model, similar to MOO2. Each unit of population generates a certain fraction of a militia unit (10 pop = 1 militia for instance) whenever ground combat occurs. Militia units are weaker than combat troops. For the colonist vs. colonist landing on the same planet simultaneously scenario, just assume each unit of colonists come with a unit of militia. The militia fight a brief ground combat, and the loser is wiped out.Aussie Mick wrote:Sure troops beat militia at 20-1 numbers, but each unit of population is a lot of people compared to a unit of troops so they make several militia units per population.marhawkman wrote:I like the idea of militia. I think it'd work very well with racial traits that modify it. (maybe traits that modify effectiveness of militia not the actual numbers?) Of course if your militia is TOO good it'll give people a reason to nuke your planets, but that would force them to recolonize the planet themselves.
I dislike the idea of having a distinction between colonists and population. it just seems far too micro-ey. and it effectively give you two races to work with.
But yes actual troops should be able to take militia at least 20-1.
as for forced relocation, I think it could work, just code a function to automatically relocate the people to the nearest planet/s.
You should also be able to fund the militia, the more funding more modern weaponry the militia has,the better it's battle factors. The downside should be that if there's a revolt the rebels have the same factors as your militia.
I can think of lots of techs and racial picks that would influence the militia ratio and their effectiveness, which would be fun. Some races might have huge militias that fight as well as other races' marines. Others might be total pushovers.
- eleazar
- Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
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- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
- Location: USA — midwest
Re: Ground Combat!
Sounds pretty good to me.Babylon Drifter wrote: Each unit of population generates a certain fraction of a militia unit (10 pop = 1 militia for instance) whenever ground combat occurs. Militia units are weaker than combat troops.
Re: Ground Combat!
Presumably the militia would support the side towards whom the planet had higher allegiance, rather than just supporting the defenders.
How should 3-or-more-way ground combats work, for example when two or more empires invade the same planet, or board the same ship/orbital building? They can't just all be fighting for domination of the planet - what if Red and Green are defending Red's planet from Blue, and Blue invades? Does Green get a chance to help out on the planet surface? Does this mean that multiple empires could have troop meters on the same planet without fighting if Green wanted to just station some troops on the planet beforehand?
I suppose you would have to assign ground combat goals for your troops. This means that theoretically, if you placed ground combat troops on the surface without assigning them a ground combat goal, they could just stay there indefinitely, perhaps even "occupying" a planet that you don't want to actually capture, perhaps due to allegiance issues on that planet, but due to the presence of your troops, the threat of taking over the planet is constant.
Techs to increase troop meters would also apply to stationing troops on allied or enemy planets as well. If troops is a standard meter, a single unit of that meter should probably represent several units of troops (perhaps the actual meter value wouldn't be displayed to the player, only the number of troop units), so that huge ground combats with hundreds of troop transports dropping off troops wouldn't max out the meter. Alternatively, troops might not be a meter, and the game might just track numbers of troops on a planet or ship. If there's going to be a maximum though, using a meter is probably best.
How should 3-or-more-way ground combats work, for example when two or more empires invade the same planet, or board the same ship/orbital building? They can't just all be fighting for domination of the planet - what if Red and Green are defending Red's planet from Blue, and Blue invades? Does Green get a chance to help out on the planet surface? Does this mean that multiple empires could have troop meters on the same planet without fighting if Green wanted to just station some troops on the planet beforehand?
I suppose you would have to assign ground combat goals for your troops. This means that theoretically, if you placed ground combat troops on the surface without assigning them a ground combat goal, they could just stay there indefinitely, perhaps even "occupying" a planet that you don't want to actually capture, perhaps due to allegiance issues on that planet, but due to the presence of your troops, the threat of taking over the planet is constant.
Techs to increase troop meters would also apply to stationing troops on allied or enemy planets as well. If troops is a standard meter, a single unit of that meter should probably represent several units of troops (perhaps the actual meter value wouldn't be displayed to the player, only the number of troop units), so that huge ground combats with hundreds of troop transports dropping off troops wouldn't max out the meter. Alternatively, troops might not be a meter, and the game might just track numbers of troops on a planet or ship. If there's going to be a maximum though, using a meter is probably best.
Warning: Antarans in dimensional portal are closer than they appear.
- Krikkitone
- Creative Contributor
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Re: Ground Combat!
I'd simply say whenever you have more than one empires troops on a planet, each empire's troops take damage proportional to the strength of all troops that they are enemies with.Bigjoe5 wrote:Presumably the militia would support the side towards whom the planet had higher allegiance, rather than just supporting the defenders.
How should 3-or-more-way ground combats work, for example when two or more empires invade the same planet, or board the same ship/orbital building? They can't just all be fighting for domination of the planet - .
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- Space Floater
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Re: Ground Combat!
Should simultaneous colonizations wipe out the loser? Particularly if the empires are at peace shouldn't the loser just abort the colonization?Babylon Drifter wrote:I like this. It's the simple militia model, similar to MOO2. Each unit of population generates a certain fraction of a militia unit (10 pop = 1 militia for instance) whenever ground combat occurs. Militia units are weaker than combat troops. For the colonist vs. colonist landing on the same planet simultaneously scenario, just assume each unit of colonists come with a unit of militia. The militia fight a brief ground combat, and the loser is wiped out.Aussie Mick wrote:Sure troops beat militia at 20-1 numbers, but each unit of population is a lot of people compared to a unit of troops so they make several militia units per population.marhawkman wrote:I like the idea of militia. I think it'd work very well with racial traits that modify it. (maybe traits that modify effectiveness of militia not the actual numbers?) Of course if your militia is TOO good it'll give people a reason to nuke your planets, but that would force them to recolonize the planet themselves.
I dislike the idea of having a distinction between colonists and population. it just seems far too micro-ey. and it effectively give you two races to work with.
But yes actual troops should be able to take militia at least 20-1.
as for forced relocation, I think it could work, just code a function to automatically relocate the people to the nearest planet/s.
You should also be able to fund the militia, the more funding more modern weaponry the militia has,the better it's battle factors. The downside should be that if there's a revolt the rebels have the same factors as your militia.
I can think of lots of techs and racial picks that would influence the militia ratio and their effectiveness, which would be fun. Some races might have huge militias that fight as well as other races' marines. Others might be total pushovers.
Re: Ground Combat!
I think there should Be à Basic implementation of SIM City and à Strategic Combat.
The Player builds His Citys and defenses on à zoomable 3D Map, which is derived from the planets texture and bump Map.
There should Be à Icon representation of the different armies that reside on à Planet and Fight actually.
Fighting could last over many Universe rounds giving the possibility for reinforcements.
If an important Battle has to Be fought out there should Be à normal tactical real Time Interface with à Limited Number of Forces that Lasts max 5 minutes.
The Player builds His Citys and defenses on à zoomable 3D Map, which is derived from the planets texture and bump Map.
There should Be à Icon representation of the different armies that reside on à Planet and Fight actually.
Fighting could last over many Universe rounds giving the possibility for reinforcements.
If an important Battle has to Be fought out there should Be à normal tactical real Time Interface with à Limited Number of Forces that Lasts max 5 minutes.
- eleazar
- Design & Graphics Lead Emeritus
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- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:09 pm
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Re: Ground Combat!
In freeorion you can have hundreds even thousands of planets. Having even a basic sim city on each one is way out of balance. Far too much menial labor in building hundreds of cities at once.strooka wrote:I think there should Be à Basic implementation of SIM City and à Strategic Combat.
The Player builds His Citys and defenses on à zoomable 3D Map, which is derived from the planets texture and bump Map.
To make large numbers of planet work we've decided to provide the player only with important buildings to build, something like Civ's wonders. The kind of routine buildings you had in MoO2 are abstracted away into a "infrastructure" meter.
Check on this page. It lists this an other differences between FO and MoO.
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- Large Juggernaut
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Re: Ground Combat!
That's how SE5 does it. If they're there they're involved. Although SE5 doesn't allow for multiple friendly forces it DOES allow for multiple enemy forces.Bigjoe5 wrote:How should 3-or-more-way ground combats work, for example when two or more empires invade the same planet, or board the same ship/orbital building? They can't just all be fighting for domination of the planet - what if Red and Green are defending Red's planet from Blue, and Blue invades? Does Green get a chance to help out on the planet surface? Does this mean that multiple empires could have troop meters on the same planet without fighting if Green wanted to just station some troops on the planet beforehand?
Computer programming is fun.