Space Combat Proposal

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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utilae
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#16 Post by utilae »

It should be possible to build a space station that makes a profit, but maybe planetary limitations are required to limit space stations.

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#17 Post by discord »

i'd say cap amount on population instead, and make it a 'racial trait' at start, so you can change how many you can have/pop units.

that way you can tailor your race the way YOU like it to be, after your game style....

//discord

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#18 Post by mr_ed »

Nice, Utilae. 8)

Here's what I had in mind, though. Maybe somebody will springboard off of it.

Instead of the move phase/attack phase, is it possible to do this RTS-style? (LET ME FINISH, PEOPLE) :D

The orders, I mean.

You tell your individual or group of ships to do either a

-> move (ships move to a point regardless of enemy surroundings, and after reaching the destination will attack whatever, or if you used ctrl-click or something, it will carry out your next maneuver)

-> attack-move (ships will move to a point until it detects an enemy ship/fleet, at which point it will attack the ship/fleet before carrying on to its original destination)

-> attack (ship(s) will move into range and attack a ship/fleet/orbital/planet regardless of what surrounds them)

There can be some default (modifiable) settings on what weapons to fire, and ranges, et cetera, but this can be discussed.

I'm sure there's specialty items too, like for troop ships, you can drop troops on a planet, or a ship with marine pods can get close to a ship and try and board...

Oh, and when you're done the orders, you click a button that says you're ready to execute the turn.

This eliminates the teleporting problem. Anticipate someone will teleport behind you? Just use attack-move instead of move. The ship will turn around and start blasting of its own accord.

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#19 Post by tsev »

I like this proposal. I like the hybrid realtime/turn based approach. I like the fact that you can move one direction while targeting a ship in a different direction. I like all the planets being present. I like the minimap. I like the concept screenshots.

I think this proposal provides a very nice mixture of the action of realtime, with the depth of turn-based combat. I know this is a big topic of debate around here, but I think utilae's combat proposal provides enough leeway for this system to be liked by members of both camps.

Somebody mentioned the Galaxies Unlimited method of assigning missions, I think that could be applied here, too. Each ship will have a mission, but if you want to override that mission and have a ship attack a specific target, then so be it. But, having missions assigned to ships will eliminate the need to have to micromanage every single ship.....for large fleet battles. Micromanagers will be able to go in and make every ship do its thing, and Macromanagers will enjoy not having to act as admiral, captain, and gunner for every ship.

This system provides a solid basis to build a combat system on.

Edit: I would probably change the way hull points, shield pts, etc. are displayed to the user. I'd rather see horizontal or vertical bars. I never liked the way some games used circular bars or other creative methods to show damage....Dungeon Keeper comes to mind.
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#20 Post by DarkStar665 »

:D Hello,New member here,And just a couple of suggestions...
I like the premise of planning your attack, then real time combat.There is a game I played called combat mission that implements this idea(although it is for a ww2 game).Players pick their troop actions,and then real time starts up...but at the end of every 60 seconds,you tell your troops what else you want them to do..(attack,run,etc.).You only get so much time to distibute orders.This seems similar to the system you list,except I know you are not talking about turns.
Perhaps you could have a set amount of combat turns per combat phase....Turn 1:players have a predetermined amount of time based on the fleet to give move,and attack orders, give orders, then real time kicks in.......the real time part could be 60 secs...2 min... whatever....then the turn is up, and turn 2 commences...
Maybe a set amount of turns would be allowed per combat...I dont know how many....
Just some ideas from a new member.......
I have lots of reading to do on everything,But I love this whole game idea and think everyone is doing a great job....





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#21 Post by utilae »

I imagined it like this:
Turn1 (within space combat)
-everyone issue orders at the same time
-can move between move or attack orders within a turn, by pressing move/attack phase buttons to change between phases.
Real Time part of Turn1
-goes for X seconds, 60 perhaps, needs to be decided/balanced

How many turns in space combat would be determined by how long we wanted the Real Time part of space combat ot go for. So if we want it to go for 5mins, then 5 turns (60sec Real Time per turn).

Also I thought you could also have an optional timer for giving orders (always handy to keep things moving).

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#22 Post by Thumper »

utilae wrote:Besides my idea sticks close to Moo2s classic system, with major improvements.
aside wrote:The space battles in MoO2 are one of the worst ever conseived. He who fires first wins. All of one side fires and then what's left of the other side fires. :(

MoO3 is a lot more realistic but to CPU intensive (drawing all of the beams and missiles). Both sides should fire when they are in range of their weapons and sensors. The side with the longer range sensors and weapons should have a distinct advantage of being the first to fire. In MoO2 it was a coin flip... With the Anterians always winning the flip.
First: Your presentation is great! It goes a long way toward explaining what you are trying to convey. http://utilae.orcon.net.nz/spacecombat.html :D

0. Ships are way too close. You should start a battle at the extreme range of detection. Battle plot should be zoomed out as far as possible when battle starts. Ships and fleets very small but once detected they should be depicted in some sort of foramtion and a heading shown. If the armada breaks up to attack multiple targets simutainously then the heading of each group should be shown... or the "best target for that heading" displayed when you click on the enemies fleet.

1. Where it starts to fall appart for me is that its 2D. Space isn't 2D... and I'd like to see 3D battles and create 3D battle plans. < I said I liked the idea... I didn't say I think it would be practicle to implement... :D > < Maybe when I get my holographic monitor :D . >

2. I don't think the addition of planets in a battle are necessary unless the planet(s) can take an active role in the battle. Either directly or thru defenses orbiting the planet. (But the pictures look nice anyway.)

3. It also looks like you are micro managing every ship.

3a. Queation: Is there a limit on the number of ships that each side can bring to battle?

3b. Can you group ships into units that act as one ship and are depicted as one ship in battle?

4. Selecting single ships to move... what happens when two ships are left on top of each other?

5. Being able to "read" the status of an enemy ship should depend on tech level vs tech level.

6. Allowing multiple foes at once is a great idea! :D Could get a bit messy but... :D

6a. Coordinating two different empire fleets to be in attack position at the same time sould be very unlikely unless they are allies.

7. How about a single stronger ship(s) targetting multiple foe ships at once?


Second: A few comments about:
http://www.artclusta.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=75&start=0
jbarcz1 wrote:Given a choice between fine control and few ships, vs less control but many ships, I vote for the latter.
I tend to agree with this ... but there is a way to have both. Allow for direct micro control and have a scripted macro control system. You use micro control to create macro scripts and to play SP and two player human vs human.

A utilae type Space Battle as I see it:

a. Before you are anywhere near enough to engage the enemy you issue a macro command that sorts out your armada/ship and places it in the most advantagious location and heading based on your knowledge of the battle at that time... even if you havent been able to spot the enemies ships yet.

b. Your fleet moves into its programmed position(s) as does you foe's.

c. Once you can detect the enemy fleet of ship your movement is halted and you can issue new orders. If the enemy fleet has poorer sensors than you do it will comtinue to move on its heading until your fleet/ship is detected and it will then stop moving and allow new input from player or AI.
utilae wrote:Really all it would involve when they teleport behind you is for your ship to rotate around to shoot it. The ai wouldn't do much other than that. The ships ability to rotate quicly would also be a huge factor.
That's what tail gunners are for. :D But I don't like the idea of teleporting ships in the first place... If they can then so can you... ... ... ... ... ... :D

@ discord, Actually for any space combat a planet should be considered cast in concrete, set in stone, an immoveable object, etc. I wouldn't even waste the CPU cycles it takes to rotate it while its on screen. < But then I'm running SETI@home all of the time on my system. >

d. My biggest concern here is that in MP two players or just a single player and the AI can tie up the game and bring it to its knees. (The othere players are left to start planning their climb of K5... Mt Everest's little brother. Or if they're like me, they'll be typing with their noses while the hairs on their heads watch the screen... if it hasn't blanked that is. < And yes I actually DO have at least two hairs left on top! :D >)


utilae:

I know what you are trying to accomplish and for SP or a two player game it would be fantastic! :D I too like tactical combat. < And are my methods better than yours... >

What I don't have is an answer on how to design a combat system where there are three or more human players involved unless its Real Time... no stopping for orders... you must issue them on the fly and allow for macro orders.

Huge numbers of ground bases fighters and missles should tend to keep attacking fleets togeather for mutual protection. So attacking multiple planets in a single turn would probably be a bad tactic unless the system is a walk over in the first place.




***********************

Ala Battlestar Galactica (the movie/TV series) I like the idea of being able to send fighters out on recon patrol to extrend a fleets eyes and ears.

I would like something like this factored into FO for SP and two player play if it isn't too complicated.

***********************

A serious flaw in MoO3 is when a cloaked ship is spotted it can recloak... :( Give me a break! Once the cloak has been penetraited it is spotted. (Unless the ship has two different cloaking systems and is able to engage the second cloak that is a higher tech than the sensors of the detecting ship(s). Talk about complicated... but it could be fun :twisted: . )


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#23 Post by utilae »

mr_ed wrote: -> move (ships move to a point regardless of enemy surroundings, and after reaching the destination will attack whatever, or if you used ctrl-click or something, it will carry out your next maneuver)

-> attack-move (ships will move to a point until it detects an enemy ship/fleet, at which point it will attack the ship/fleet before carrying on to its original destination)

-> attack (ship(s) will move into range and attack a ship/fleet/orbital/planet regardless of what surrounds them)
I imagined that in the move phase you would select a path for a ship to move along. In the attack phase you would select 1 enemy to attack with lasers (using all lasers on him), and you would select a group of enemies to attack with missiles (missile fire spread between ships selected). Then in the real time part, your ship would move along it's path, while attacking. If it and another ship had intersecting paths and are to collide, then they stop short of each other. As the ship moves along the path, it would fire lasers at the 1 selected ship and fire missiles at the group of ships that were also selected.
mr_ed wrote: I'm sure there's specialty items too, like for troop ships, you can drop troops on a planet, or a ship with marine pods can get close to a ship and try and board...
My idea is that you click on a target in the attack phase and a menu pops up with relevant orders. So a troop transport could target a planet and a menu would popup with orders such as launch troop pods.
mr_ed wrote: Oh, and when you're done the orders, you click a button that says you're ready to execute the turn.
I imagined that everyone would give orders at the same time and they would click done when ready to execute orders. When everyone has clicked done, then real time part plays out.
mr_ed wrote: This eliminates the teleporting problem. Anticipate someone will teleport behind you? Just use attack-move instead of move. The ship will turn around and start blasting of its own accord.
I figured that you could target a ship you suspected having the teleport ability, and when it teleports in real time, your ship will try to keep firing at it, reallocate weapons lock, etc.

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#24 Post by utilae »

Thumper wrote: 0. Ships are way too close. You should start a battle at the extreme range of detection. Battle plot should be zoomed out as far as possible when battle starts. Ships and fleets very small but once detected they should be depicted in some sort of foramtion and a heading shown. If the armada breaks up to attack multiple targets simutainously then the heading of each group should be shown... or the "best target for that heading" displayed when you click on the enemies fleet.
The images only represent a basic idea of what I am trying to get across. In the actual space combat system, I imagine a big map, proper size ships, etc.
Thumper wrote: 2. I don't think the addition of planets in a battle are necessary unless the planet(s) can take an active role in the battle. Either directly or thru defenses orbiting the planet. (But the pictures look nice anyway.)
Well, I thought it would be cool to interlink space combat and ground combat. So when dropping troops onto a planet, ground combat begins. Though even without that idea, planets serve as having ground-to-space defenses and are where you would send your troop pods.
Thumper wrote: 3. It also looks like you are micro managing every ship.
You could micromanage each ship, but you can also do things in groups. So you could select a group of ships and set move paths for them all at once, ie drag a line and all these parallel lines are created as well. Then from there you could move the end points of these lines. And for attacking you could select 1 ship and attack 1 ship, 1 ship attack many or many ships attack many or 1. So you could select 5 ships. Then you group select 5 enemy ship to attack. A menu pops up, so choose lasers. All lasers are equally targeted across all five of those ships. You 5 ships vs 5 ships, in this way, would basically mean that each ship would focus all of its lasers on the oposing enemy ship. What's that you have missiles as well, then select those 2 ships over there and your 5 ships full of missiles will be spread between two ships. Get the idea. :lol:
Thumper wrote: 3a. Queation: Is there a limit on the number of ships that each side can bring to battle?
I don't know, it's always an option, if it's needed.
Thumper wrote: 3b. Can you group ships into units that act as one ship and are depicted as one ship in battle?
You could have such features, it wouldn't hurt.
Thumper wrote: 4. Selecting single ships to move... what happens when two ships are left on top of each other?
If two or more ships had intersecting move paths, then in the real time part they would move along those paths and stop before hitting the other ships. You could have them go under/over, but it's 2d and it would look funny.
Thumper wrote: 6. Allowing multiple foes at once is a great idea! :D Could get a bit messy but... :D
Just think of them all as the same enemy and that that enemy has a few different coloured ships. :wink:
Thumper wrote: 6a. Coordinating two different empire fleets to be in attack position at the same time sould be very unlikely unless they are allies.
Everyone gives orders at the same time. During this time they can switch between giving move and attack orders. When everyone is done, then the real time part palys out.
Thumper wrote: 7. How about a single stronger ship(s) targetting multiple foe ships at once?
Select that single ships and then group select all enemies on the map if you want. Your ship will spread fire equally among all the ships on the map.
Thumper wrote: d. My biggest concern here is that in MP two players or just a single player and the AI can tie up the game and bring it to its knees. (The othere players are left to start planning their climb of K5... Mt Everest's little brother. Or if they're like me, they'll be typing with their noses while the hairs on their heads watch the screen... if it hasn't blanked that is. < And yes I actually DO have at least two hairs left on top! :D >)
In MP my idea would be good still. Everyone has there turn at the same time. You could have a time limit, to keep things moving, but only during the give orders phase. When everyone has clicked done, then combat plays out in real time, for 30sec perhaps. Then back to giving orders. Battles will not take longer then a set time + the time taken to give orders. So once 4 combat turns have passed, then the battle continues over to the next turn. In that turn the battle may last for 2 combat turns.
Thumper wrote: What I don't have is an answer on how to design a combat system where there are three or more human players involved unless its Real Time... no stopping for orders... you must issue them on the fly and allow for macro orders.
My system would allow 1, 2, 3, 4, ++++++ players.
Thumper wrote: Huge numbers of ground bases fighters and missles should tend to keep attacking fleets togeather for mutual protection. So attacking multiple planets in a single turn would probably be a bad tactic unless the system is a walk over in the first place.
Maybe it would depend on entering the system from a side where you can isolate planets so that you are not in the middle.

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#25 Post by Thumper »

utilae wrote:
Thumper wrote: Huge numbers of ground bases fighters and missles should tend to keep attacking fleets togeather for mutual protection. So attacking multiple planets in a single turn would probably be a bad tactic unless the system is a walk over in the first place.
Maybe it would depend on entering the system from a side where you can isolate planets so that you are not in the middle.
The way I see it, fleets entering a system should always enter it from outside of the outside planet's orbit... even if that planet is on the far side of the star at the time.

This gives the player time to issue fleet tactical orders and set out recon units.

One thing that 2D does: it eliminates the possibility of entering a system out of the ecliptic... N/S regions which could facilitate a "sneak" attack on the inner planets.

I really do like using 3D for space battles and I hope that there can be a way to do it. But only for SP and two human players.

I still fear that the game will get bogged down with more than two humans if this system is used.

Please consider the following MP 8 human players and 8 AI players: A single player is attacking four systems in the same turn. A second player is attacking five systems in a single turn. A third player is in the process of developing hir forces and is not involved in any battles. A fourth player is defending two systems and attacking two others. A fifth player has just started sending fleets to a system in order to attack it but they won't get there for three turns. A sixth player is defending three systems and attacking a system. A seventh player is defending three systems and wondering where all of these attacking forces are coming from. A seventh player is currently blockaded by an AI and is building up hir forces. The 8th player is also in a force building phase and not attacking of defending. ( hir = his/her )

As you can see there are four players engaged in multiple battles in a single turn and four other players with nothing to do. The sinerio I layed out could take over an hour to get sorted out. Only to be replayed the next turn... Players are going to start looking for other outlets for their time. IMO


On allowing others MP players watch a battle that they aren't directly involved in or spying on: I think that this would tend to give the watching non participants a huge advantage and would unbalance the game.


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#26 Post by utilae »

Thumper wrote: Please consider the following MP 8 human players and 8 AI players: A single player is attacking four systems in the same turn. A second player is attacking five systems in a single turn. A third player is in the process of developing hir forces and is not involved in any battles. A fourth player is defending two systems and attacking two others. A fifth player has just started sending fleets to a system in order to attack it but they won't get there for three turns. A sixth player is defending three systems and attacking a system. A seventh player is defending three systems and wondering where all of these attacking forces are coming from. A seventh player is currently blockaded by an AI and is building up hir forces. The 8th player is also in a force building phase and not attacking of defending.

As you can see there are four players engaged in multiple battles in a single turn and four other players with nothing to do. The sinerio I layed out could take over an hour to get sorted out. Only to be replayed the next turn... Players are going to start looking for other outlets for their time.
This problem would happen with any Moo type game. It is unavoidable. It can only be relaxed and made less stressing for players. Things like chat are usually used in these situations. People like to chat, they type away and when the game starts again, chat closes, and they say 'oh man' then say 'oh well, back to the game'.

In Moo2, in this situation, combat would last for a very long time in a single turn. But in my system, combat would be spread out over many turns, so the turns keep moving. All players currently in battles would be having battles at the same time and each battle would only take X combat turns. So the players waiting know that they only have to wait as long as those X combat turns. Sure, they know they'll have to wait next turn for continued battles, but they know that they don't have to sit on the current turn for 30minute battle, and instead would have to endure 15 2minute battles.

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#27 Post by Thumper »

utilae wrote:
Thumper wrote: Please consider the following MP 8 human players and 8 AI players: A single player is attacking four systems in the same turn. A second player is attacking five systems in a single turn. A third player is in the process of developing hir forces and is not involved in any battles. A fourth player is defending two systems and attacking two others. A fifth player has just started sending fleets to a system in order to attack it but they won't get there for three turns. A sixth player is defending three systems and attacking a system. A seventh player is defending three systems and wondering where all of these attacking forces are coming from. A seventh player is currently blockaded by an AI and is building up hir forces. The 8th player is also in a force building phase and not attacking of defending.

As you can see there are four players engaged in multiple battles in a single turn and four other players with nothing to do. The sinerio I layed out could take over an hour to get sorted out. Only to be replayed the next turn... Players are going to start looking for other outlets for their time.
This problem would happen with any Moo type game. It is unavoidable. It can only be relaxed and made less stressing for players. Things like chat are usually used in these situations. People like to chat, they type away and when the game starts again, chat closes, and they say 'oh man' then say 'oh well, back to the game'.

In Moo2, in this situation, combat would last for a very long time in a single turn. But in my system, combat would be spread out over many turns, so the turns keep moving. All players currently in battles would be having battles at the same time and each battle would only take X combat turns. So the players waiting know that they only have to wait as long as those X combat turns. Sure, they know they'll have to wait next turn for continued battles, but they know that they don't have to sit on the current turn for 30minute battle, and instead would have to endure 15 2minute battles.
I don't beleive its unavoidable. Just not resolved yet.

All I can say at this point is there needs to be an option in the game setup that allows for pure scripted battles -and- interactive & scripted battles.

Scripted battle: Execute plan Alpha-Omega-1 < Which targets the planet with the largest population... removing all defenses on the way in... using attack formation XYZ. >

Interactive & Scripted battle: You go interactive moving each ship or group of ships. You opponents either do the same or they issue "Execute plan TTT.

****************

You have to do something to reduce the dead time for non participating players.

As I see it, all you've done is stretched the agony out over more turns... creating even more dead time.

Run some numbers. Your way battles last up to ... 2 min/turn space and 2 min/turn planet? And they can be non conclusive.

So you could be in a system battle for many turns rather than resolving it in a single turn. Taking the human out of the mix at the micro level would speed things up over a hundred fold.

Like I said... SP and two player human your system is OK. More than two players and you start to loose players left, right and center.

Take a good look at the number of players willing to commit to an eight player MoO2 game. When it first came out... lots of multi player games... and then players started finding they had shoes that needed polishing and lawns that needed mowing, and the outside of the house could use a new coat of paint... heck some even shut off their computers < shudder > and went bowling or fishing.

There are always die hards. But you'll loose you MP gamers just like the rest of the games that get bogged down in MP play.


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#28 Post by utilae »

Thumper wrote: You have to do something to reduce the dead time for non participating players.
Yeah, but not at the cost of fun. Reducing the time to please others is no good, if all the fun is gone. Besides scripting sounds like it would be out of my control, relying on the ai, etc. Plus how would you remember what ships had what scripts. And your scripts can't cater for every event that your ship would face. Plans fail and backups are needed, so how many scripts would you have then. 8)

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#29 Post by Thumper »

utilae wrote:
Thumper wrote: You have to do something to reduce the dead time for non participating players.
Yeah, but not at the cost of fun. Reducing the time to please others is no good, if all the fun is gone.
The problem you keep over looking is fun for whom?
Besides scripting sounds like it would be out of my control, relying on the ai, etc. Plus how would you remember what ships had what scripts. And your scripts can't cater for every event that your ship would face. Plans fail and backups are needed, so how many scripts would you have then. 8)
Creating and refining battle scripts in SP and two player games for use in larger MP games is the only way to make three plus MP game interesting for most players.

There should be no limit on the number of Battle Plans a player can have in their Battle Plan Folder.

As for determining which ship is doing what... You don't need to get down to that level... Scripting lets you do the following by issuing a single order:
A Scripted Battle Plan wrote: Assume you are the invading fleet:
Also assume you have 6 fleets consisting of 30 Carriers, 15 Missile Friggits, 5 Scouts and 30 Fleet Point Defense - Beam Ships.

Note: The makeup of the individual fleets nor the number of each type of ship is not of critical importantance. The player should have some idea of the constructs of the fleets invloved in order to maximize their effectiveness.

1. All fleets come under one flag admiral's command and form an armada.
2. All ships are assigned duties from a single CIC/CNC.
3. You issue Battle Plan Alpha-Zulu-One:

Battle Plan Alpha-Zulu-One does the following:
a. Moves the Scouts into a picket formation
b. Moves the Point Defense ships into a defensive posture in front of your Carriers and Missile Friggits.
c. Assigns Primary targets for your first, second and third volley of Missiles. (Once the target(s) are withing detection range of your pickets.)
d. Assigns Primary targets for your fighters with a delay (of your choice).
e. Starts moving the entire fleet in system based on the the formation you created for this Battle Plan.
f. If a ship is lost during battle ... say a Picket Scout ... the others are moved automatically to maximize fleet coverage. The same for Point Defense ships.
g. Missiles and Fighters are launched at the Primary Target when it comes in range... (Here there are three types of range: ( In sensor range: Detected. At extreme Missile/Fighter range. At % Effective Range... this gives Missiles and Fighters room to manoever for % effectiveness. ) The player has predecided which range to use and the AI follows orders!
h. You've ordered your ships to stop their advance just outside of the defenders Beam Weapon Range. Your Armada moves forward and STOPS just beyond effective defense Beam Weapon Range. ( This is a Scout function to determine the tech level and type of weapons the Defender is using. If your Scouts are lower tech than the Defenders your Armada has a good chance of being lured into a trap! :twisted: . )

Once the Primary target is secured or your fleet has been rebuffed the AI will determine if you still have "time left" during your battle turn and if you do then your Secondary target is assigned and battle commenses again.

This continues until you are either out of Battle Time of there are no more targets of opportunity in the system.

Note: You can also test for the strength of the opponents defenses and if they fall below a critical value, that you select, you can divide your attack to cover two or more targets in the first sweep. ... All within a single Battle Plan.

Also Note: Your Ships, Fighters and Misslies move where ordered without any STUPID manoevers or spins as in MoO2/3! :(

Also Note that fleets may be reorginized for effectiveness by the player whenever the player wants. They may be combined or split at the players whim... as long as the fleets to be combined are in the same system. Fleets may be assigned to form into larger fleets even when not in the same system and will follow the larger fleet until they can join up.

Scripting actually puts you in control of the AI fighting your battles... you select the battle plan(script) and the AI executes it.

It looks like EgoSoft's X2 is going to use battle scripts and interactive battles. And from what I'm reading other new games are moving that way too.


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#30 Post by discord »

thumper: reduce the 'dead time' ? simple.

you dont have any.

//discord

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