Bringing balance to the factions

[Skaro]

FreeOrion already has a number of species with pros and cons attributed to them.
This would cause some balance issues when you pit them against each other.

So I propose that all species are subjected to predefined construction rules instead of hardwiring and tweaking them along the road.

My idea is that each species starts with the same number of points. These points can be spent on attributes like research or population growth. It's kinda like in MOO2 and 3 where you could create/modify a race to your preferences.

You'd have to select the following to set up a race:

Name
Planet type (desert, swamp, etc)
Body structure? (organic, energy, machine, etc)
Empire name

I'd split the attributes into the following:

Research
Population growth
Harvesting
Mining
Manufacturing
Diplomacy
Espionage
Trade

There would also be bonus feats:
Space combat bonus (ships are more efficient)
Ground combat bonus (it takes less troops to conquer a planet)
Telepathy (gives a bonus to diplomacy and espionage)
Durable (species is more resistant to phenomena that would normally diminish a population)
Hivemind (a goverment that doesn't suffer from political uprisings or strikes, research and diplomacy suffer, mining, bioharvesting and manufacturing get a bonus)
Natural researchers (Bonus to research, might unlock extras)
etc.

Let's say I create a new species, they are fast breeding insectoids with a hivemind.
Such a species would excel at populationgrowth, manufacturing and have a hivemind feat. So most points would go into those areas. Stuff like trade, espionage, research and diplomacy would suffer because you couldn't put a lot points into those.

Some other notes:
- Maybe it's best to cap the feats in such a way that you can't select more then 3 or 4.
- Attributes would be divided into: excellent, good, average and poor. We should work out costs for each of these
- All races start out with the same number of points there are no exceptions.
- Selecting some feats will disable other choices.
- Some races can't have certain feats, robotic races can't pick telepathy for instance.
- Feats have different costs, hivemind is more expensive then durable.

Just my 2 cents, any thoughts on this?

[Krikkitone]

A few thoughts
1. Species in the game currently do not have bonuses other than where they prefer on the environment wheel

2. The proposed bonuses for species do not include Numbers, so when species actually get bonuses, the numbers can be tweaked

3. Custom species Are planned, (where they all have point values) but the values of the various picks will need to be tweaked for balance, and that can be done beforehand as well as after custom species are put in.


4. "Feats" should Not duplicate other picks... if Telepathic=better spying and diplomacy, then you should NOT have a Telepathic pick.
"Hivemind" should not give penalties to research/diplomacy or bonuses to manufacturing/farming/mining... because you can get those Seperately (Hivemind Could be a pick meaning no rebellions, and you could then get penalties to research/diplomacy to help pay for it and bonuses to other things with your remaining picks)

[eleazar]

Krikkitone is right on.

The only difference currently between the species is that some minor species can't produce certain resources.
Also the Super Testers have some unfair powers.

There's nothing i'd rather work on than species, but that's not what is primarily needed right now, so feel free to discuss, but don't expect any implementation anytime soon.

[Skaro]

I know that there's barely any race specific stuff implemented right now, that part of the game is further down the roadmap.
It wouldn't hurt to discuss a balancing system to see what other people come up with.

The feats I mentioned above are just examples, you could use anything in there.
For instance, the Gyisache have a "follow the leader" thing going on, this could be made into a selectable feature for a custom race later on.

[eleazar]

Something i'd like to see that wouldn't be too hard to do, is give each species a couple beginning level techs. Each species would have different techs appropriate to their style. This is mostly a way to actualize the species concept. For instance if a species is described as living underground give them "Subterranean Construction" right from the start.

This idea is shamelessly stolen from CivIV.

[OllyG]

Something i'd like to see that wouldn't be too hard to do, is give each species a couple beginning level techs. Each species would have different techs appropriate to their style. This is mostly a way to actualize the species concept. For instance if a species is described as living underground give them "Subterranean Construction" right from the start.

This is something which would only make a difference at the beginning of the game. We should decide if different species have bonuses and penalties which cannot be replicated or if future techonlogies would allow anyone to learn the bonuses of other species.

It seems that now every species can and does live underground, since "Natural Tunnels" is a planet special. Maybe a species which lives underground should start on a planet with tunnels. The environmental preferences determine starting world. (Maybe some species should be claustraphobic and not be able to make use of the natural tunnels special.)

There is technology to allow terraforming, changing the planet. But should we have technology to allow the species to change? Doing genetic engineering to change the species. There are psionics and cyborg technologies already in the game. Are these the same as a species staring out as a cyborg or psychic?

My main point is that species specific abilites and researchable technologies could easily overlap. As far as I know a decision has been made that all species have the same tech-tree, so it seems that species abilities should be different to technologies and should therefore not be replicated by technologies. Currently only environmental preference and appearance are different between species - this makes game balance easier to acheive, if there were an equal number of each planet type (which I think there isn't).

I think a good species research bonus would be to have a bonus (cheaper research costs or minimum number of turns) to a specific area of the tech-tree (for example ships). This would allow a warlike species to stay warlike the whole game. I think it is important to have species bonuses which are not watered down by the technolgies gained throughout the course of a game.

<<Edit - shouldn't this thread be renamed bringing balance to the species?>>

[em3]

I think a good species research bonus would be to have a bonus (cheaper research costs or minimum number of turns) to a specific area of the tech-tree (for example ships). This would allow a warlike species to stay warlike the whole game. I think it is important to have species bonuses which are not watered down by the technolgies gained throughout the course of a game.

I like this idea. I don't know how it would work in multi-species empire, though. Should the original species' research bonus be used? Or the dominant one (however it's determined)?

[Bigjoe5]

I like this idea. I don't know how it would work in multi-species empire, though. Should the original species' research bonus be used? Or the dominant one (however it's determined)?

Whichever species is associated with the object being affected, presumably. For example, if you started as a peaceful race, but happen to have a warship piloted by a war-like race, then that ship would get extra bonuses from military technology by virtue of being manned by that species.

[Krikkitone]

I like this idea. I don't know how it would work in multi-species empire, though. Should the original species' research bonus be used? Or the dominant one (however it's determined)?

Whichever species is associated with the object being affected, presumably. For example, if you started as a peaceful race, but happen to have a warship piloted by a war-like race, then that ship would get extra bonuses from military technology by virtue of being manned by that species.

They were talking about research... ie warlike race gets a discount on researching weapons.

That I would tend to disagree with, (partially because of the multi-species empire idea)
I like the idea of starting a species off with a tech...even a non-starting tech (one that doesn't lead to any new techs all on its own.. so it can be a long term bonus)
or some Special on their HW

Or they could also start with certain techs 1/2 researched... so a "Transcendental" race could start with "Transcendance Win" 1/2 researched. [this way the multi-species empire would have the benefit from the founding species... but the benefit would eventually go away depending on how high the tech was]

[eleazar]

They were talking about research... ie warlike race gets a discount on researching weapons.

To expand and explain:

Since empire's can (and probably usually will be multi-species, Species bonuses are supposed to be specific to what that species actually does. I.E. you don't get bonuses for all members of an empire just because you started with a particular species. That species doesn't necessarily have a special place in the empire.

So warmongers would get a bonus if they are the ones actually doing the research. But what if they enslave a puny science-oriented species, and have them do some of the research? It doesn't make sense that brainy pacifists should get a bonus to researching weapons just because the player started with a warmonger species.

Research is global. All the research points (RP) of all the species are put together in a pile, and doled out to techs according to their order in the queue. So there's no way to say which RPs came from which species to see if a discount is applied.

So the idea of a species getting a discount for researching a particular branch of technology won't work.

[Krikkitone]

They were talking about research... ie warlike race gets a discount on researching weapons.

To expand and explain:

Since empire's can (and probably usually will be multi-species, Species bonuses are supposed to be specific to what that species actually does. I.E. you don't get bonuses for all members of an empire just because you started with a particular species. That species doesn't necessarily have a special place in the empire.

So warmongers would get a bonus if they are the ones actually doing the research. But what if they enslave a puny science-oriented species, and have them do some of the research? It doesn't make sense that brainy pacifists should get a bonus to researching weapons just because the player started with a warmonger species.

Research is global. All the research points (RP) of all the species are put together in a pile, and doled out to techs according to their order in the queue. So there's no way to say which RPs came from which species to see if a discount is applied.

So the idea of a species getting a discount for researching a particular branch of technology won't work.

That's what I meant, since researching a tech is not done by a species, a discount wouldn't work.

However... an Empire can have a technology partially researched... so an empire that Starts with the "Transdimensional species" could have "Star gates" 10%, 25%, 50% or 100% researched at the beginning of the game... that bonus would be because the empire Started with the "Transdimensional species" rather than anything else.

Now I wouldn't suggest a lot of those bonuses, but they would act like a discount. (based on founding species of the empire)

[em3]

Is there an option research a technology for some turns, remove it from the queue, and add it some time later with previously spent RP (and turn counter) conserved?

[eleazar]

Is there an option research a technology for some turns, remove it from the queue, and add it some time later with previously spent RP (and turn counter) conserved?

Yes. progress is conserved.

However... an Empire can have a technology partially researched... so an empire that Starts with the "Transdimensional species" could have "Star gates" 10%, 25%, 50% or 100% researched at the beginning of the game... that bonus would be because the empire Started with the "Transdimensional species" rather than anything else.

Now I wouldn't suggest a lot of those bonuses, but they would act like a discount. (based on founding species of the empire)

Yeah, technically that method could work, but it strikes me as odd. It unlikely, but not impossible, that the "Transdimensional species" could no longer be part of your empire by the time you got around to researching "stargates." And it kind of blurs the lines between empire and starting species, which isn't good since in everything else your starting species is has no special role.

If we feel the need to give a bonus sorta like that i think it should be more like:

• > Psycorps: 50% research cost if you have a "telepathic" species in your empire. or,
  > Psycorps: cannot research unlesss you have a "telepathic" species in your empire.

[em3]

• > Psycorps: cannot research unlesss you have a "telepathic" species in your empire.

Would that prevent also from stealing or trading the technology?

[eleazar]

• > Psycorps: cannot research unlesss you have a "telepathic" species in your empire.

Would that prevent also from stealing or trading the technology?

I would not place any limitations on what techs you can trade or steal, except perhaps general limitations like, you can't get a tech you don't have the prerequisits for.

But that was sort of a bad example. Better:

• > Tech- Digital Mind-Reading: cannot research unlesss you have a "telepathic" species in your empire.

If for instance the concept of Psycorps is a secret police force staffed by telepaths, it should be a special building or government setting like so:

• > Psycorps: Suppresses rebellions. Has no effect unlesss you have a "telepathic" species in your empire.

I'm not saying we should do things like the above, but these would be relatively easy for the engine to handle, and don't have any obvious game-design problems.