Fleet supply system

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PL_Andrev
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Fleet supply system

#1 Post by PL_Andrev »

As I understood from the "read map of FO 0.4" the supplies are three goods which should be transported to fleet:
- fuel
- weapon
- fighters

I read about "lines" or "ways" to connection supply producer to fleet but I want to propose an alternate -much simpler- solution:

The supply field

At first I'm against additional options like supply routes or supply indicators. It is good solution but... complicate the game much more.
Is no indicator to push race power to 100% production or to 100% research. Why put a supply indicator?

After jumps fleet is consuming the fuel.
During the battle the number of fighters are reduced (destroyed by enemy).
During the battle the number of missiles are reduced (firing to enemy).
What about beam weapons / mass drivers?

Mechanics of "supply field":
Supplies are a kind of planetary production, so can be corresponded only with level of planetary production.
Supplies level depends from distance from ally planet, owner or friend race.
Supplies level depends from empire shape.
Supplies are transferred by pseudo-fleet (in real: a vectors) without player control or management.

All supplies are not available at this same level, at some regions one kind of supply is more available than other.
It means that different kinds of supplies are delivered from different sources:

Ammo is produced by each planet and the supply level depends from planetary production.
It means that research/food/minning worlds will not produce this supply.

Fighters are produced with each planet with starbase and the supply level depends from planetary production divided by 5.
It means that only planet with any starbase will support ships with this supply. Of course research/food/mining worlds or without star base will not produce this supply.

Fuel is provided by starbases, and the supply level depends from starbase hull.
It means that only planet with any starbase will support ships with fuel. Starbase size will determinate level of fuel production.

All these supplies are available in each point of galaxy space (in fact: only immovable fleet, located at any star system can be supplied with goods), but the level of supply are different and depend from kind of planets and empire shape. All planes are supply sources, but some sources are very weak. Fleet cannot collect more supplies that projected.

All supplies are available in space with math formula: produced source / sqrt(1+range)
Image
sum - calculated with all owner and friendly planets
supply - supply level available on planet per turn
uu - range


How it works:
Image
Image
(Upload with Imageshack)

Result on "supply" filed in game.
Color depend from level, step color is 10. Scale is not kept.
Image
(Prepared with MS Excel, upload with Imageshack)


Advantages:
1. Simple to implementation (only loops and math data).
2. Simple to calculate supply value (current planetary production and space base hull class).
3. Supply level depend from buildings on planet and technology (it impact for planetary production).
4. Simple to calculation - player may check each star system to look at current supply level in this system.
5. Simple to calculation when fleet will be fully equipped with supplies.
6. Simple to supply calculation from owner and other ally planets.
7. Easy to blockade fleet with fuel and fighters (by destroying nearest starbases).
8. Different supplies are supported with different levels (combination with planetary production, base existence, base hull class)
9. Supply level depends from range.
10. Supply level depends from empire shape.

Disadvantages:
1. Is not possible to completely stop supply with star systems blockade (no physical routes).

Eliminating this disadvantage:
Eliminate this adventage is possible by correlation with:

Basic improvement - enemy territory supply field:
Idea: basic races relations are:

1) War: supply field are subtracted by self:
It means that if my 'ammo' field at Nixon system is 20 and my opponent is 16, so in fact at Nixon system my opponent will not have support, but my support will be reduced to 4.

2) Neutral ("non-aggression pact" or "open border"): supply field keeps its value.
It means that if my 'ammo' field at Nixon system is 20 and my opponent with is 16, both of us can explore Nixon system because my supply is 20/turn, and my opponent - 16/turn.

3) Friend - ally race (any agreement between players or "military help" only): supply fields of both races are added together.
It means that if my 'ammo' field at Nixon system is 20 and my friend is 16, both filed added and my final supply is 20+16 = 36/turn.
"Military help" - as a ship, technology or money gift, my partner can support my war, but without active war at my side.

Result on "supply" filed in game with other player relations.
Bottom-left system is producing 100 supply per turn (vs 50 and 250)
Color depend from supply level, step color is 10.
Image


Enhanced improvement - enemy supply field produced by enemy fleet:

Fleet can produce negative supply field with actual level of it supply.
Summary enemy fleet cannot produce supplies but may decrease level of supplies for player's empire:

Spotted problem: is possibility to detect stealth big enemy fleet with supply filed changes, if in game the supply filed generator is implemented.

Result on "supply" filed in game with enemy fleet.
Enemy fleet have 80 ammo.
Color depend from supply level, step color is 10.
Image

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Bigjoe5
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Re: Fleet supply system

#2 Post by Bigjoe5 »

Having a supply range in uus rather than a supply range in starlane jumps doesn't really make sense in the context of the starlane system.

Imagine if you owned a system that was right next to another system spatially, but only connected to that system through a series of 10 starlane jumps. Now, another empire comes in and colonizes that planet and builds supply starbases or whatever, to increase its supply range to your system. Now their ships fighting in your system can be easily resupplied.

Ideally, destroying supply-heavy planets should be of some strategic importance, and thus protecting them should also be. If you can supply your ships without putting your supply station at risk, that destroys the strategic tradeoff involved in having such a supply station at all.
PL_Andrev wrote:Advantages:
1. Simple to implementation (only loops and math data).
2. Simple to calculate supply value (current planetary production and space base hull class).
3. Supply level depend from buildings on planet and technology (it impact for planetary production).
4. Simple to calculation - player may check each star system to look at current supply level in this system.
5. Simple to calculation when fleet will be fully equipped with supplies.
6. Simple to supply calculation from owner and other ally planets.
7. Easy to blockade fleet with fuel and fighters (by destroying nearest starbases).
8. Different supplies are supported with different levels (combination with planetary production, base existence, base hull class)
9. Supply level depends from range.
10. Supply level depends from empire shape.
All of these are equally true, if not more so, with the current system, except for 8, which could easily be implemented independently if desired, and 9, which isn't really an advantage, since measuring supply level with starlane jumps makes more sense.
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PL_Andrev
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Re: Fleet supply system

#3 Post by PL_Andrev »

Bigjoe5 wrote:Having a supply range in uus rather than a supply range in starlane jumps doesn't really make sense in the context of the starlane system.
Space movement between stars with limitation with fuel/supply only makes more sense than starlanes routes too.
But I think that we do not discuss about "sense" for some idea but about mechanics - if the are simpler and easier to implementation that it is better. I fear only that the additional supply support management (indicators), and mechanic for it (which fleet is more important to supply) cause major problems for micro-management for players and kill game simplicity (too many complication kills Moo3, Civ5 has simpler management - is simpler- than Civ4 with this same level of playability).

But maybe you're right.
At GalCiv2 some similar idea works perfect: the trade routes which can be attacked and broken with space blockade by enemy ships. There it works very good.

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Re: Fleet supply system

#4 Post by Bigjoe5 »

PL_Andrev wrote:I fear only that the additional supply support management (indicators), and mechanic for it (which fleet is more important to supply) cause major problems for micro-management for players and kill game simplicity.
The player doesn't choose which fleet to supply manually. Currently, all fleets within supply range are automatically supplied. If this is ever changed, it will be in a way that minimizes micromanagement. Why does supply along starlanes rather than in a radius around a system automatically create more micromanagement?
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PL_Andrev
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Re: Fleet supply system

#5 Post by PL_Andrev »

Look, I'm a new user for this forum and the big problem for me is find some precise information about f.e. supply mechanics which is implemented at current versions of game, so please forgive me and my stupid mails.

In my proposal player can check supply level in each point of space before fleet is moving.
Bigjoe5 wrote:Why does supply along starlanes rather than in a radius around a system automatically create more micromanagement?
I think about other supply routes than are built/created automatically. If the route will be cut, how to change the way (to longer or safer route) or how to change the source (less effective but with safe way)?
The supply slider will be global or for each planet?
_______________________

At the Stars! game the available resources from planet are depend from current production: if no production on planet, all resources was available to other consumptions.

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Bigjoe5
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Re: Fleet supply system

#6 Post by Bigjoe5 »

PL_Andrev wrote:Look, I'm a new user for this forum and the big problem for me is find some precise information about f.e. supply mechanics which is implemented at current versions of game, so please forgive me and my stupid mails.
Your input is welcome, but understand that various aspects of the game are more final than others. I realize it's not always immediately obvious what is open to being changed, and what's been discussed to death.
PL_Andrev wrote:In my proposal player can check supply level in each point of space before fleet is moving.
Currently, supply level is all-or-nothing. All the player has to check is whether the star system in question is reached by supply lines or not. Yes/no is simpler than more/less. And again, if this changes, which is a possibility, the player will obviously have to be able to check whether or not supply lines reach the planet and to what extent.
PL_Andrev wrote:The supply slider will be global or for each planet?
There is no slider. Sliders are bad, as they create micromanagement. Choosing between a few very distinct options is often better/more interesting than choosing between many very similar options. Right now, only planets with focus set to supply can generate supply lines.
PL_Andrev wrote:At the Stars! game the available resources from planet are depend from current production: if no production on planet, all resources was available to other consumptions.
How to determine a given planet's supply meter is definitely open for discussion. How does making supply dependent on production help gameplay compared to other possibilities?
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PL_Andrev
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Re: Fleet supply system

#7 Post by PL_Andrev »

The supply support is partially solved now, but do you have any ideas for final and total mechanics for starlanes?

Example of GalCiv2 / trade routes
In this game a trade routes are created by special ships (merchant ships), when after reach a target planet create a trade route. Enemy ships on trade route do not brake the trade route, but it happens after destroying two auto-ships travelled by this route.
At this idea creates solutions:
1) where is located a first point point of trade route (merchant's producer)
2) where is located a second point of trade route (merchant's target)

I 'm not convinced to the supply system by starlane routes conception, for me this is no less flexible.
At this conception (similar to GC2) the problems are spotted:
1) The fleet is movable
2) We want to have impact who is supplier and which way,
3) We want to avoid a micromanagement.
_______________________

SUPPLY MANAGEMENT
Here are some options:
1)
All PP do not used on all planets to current production are allocated to supply production. Player can control how many supply is produced by control current production on planet,
or
It is the production slider, it tells how many % of all planetary production (this same % at each planetary production) is produced as supply, plus wasted resources (when no planetary production),
[it looks not interesting but only one slider works at Stars! game very good]

2)
Not used supplies are wasted,
or
Not used supplies are collected / stored and can be traded to other races,

3)
Supplies are collected on each planet as produced (lost planet = lost resources),
or
Supplies are collected as treasure at no space and are available on each planet in any value

SUPPLY SYSTEM
In my opinion before partial implementation it should be prepared a complete plan of supply mechanics with complete mechanics and all possible options. Here is a "conception" of supply system but without specific details.
It is a mistake in my opinion:
How will the fleet be supplied?
What happens if the route will be broken?
How can I re-supply broken supply route?
How to increase the supply level of THIS fleet?
How to create an alternative supply routes?

Maybe the GalCiv2 idea is not stupid and it can be useful for FO:
1) To supply any ship is used a special supply ship which can stored supplies by his modules and can create a supply route.
After joining to fleet / ship ("supply fleet" order) the ship is
disappear,
or
move automatically to homeworld

and his transferred supply is added to fleet and the route is creating between:
own planet of supplier
or
nearest planet

At each next turn, the supply value is growing up by value: transferred supply / route jumps
If the stored supply at supply ships was 33a and route from home planet to fleet is 22 jumps, the fleet have extra 33 supplies and 33/22 = 1.5 each turn (33, 1.5 / 3 / 4.5 ... to final 33 per turn).

2)
- If the fleet is moved, supply route disappears.
- If the fleet was supplied and it complete supplied the supply route is still active but do not supply more goods.
- If the enemy is on the supply route then the supply route is broken

3) Is possible to create supply bases at any planet (for example each module contains 500 supplies)
Base can be supplied as standard fleet, but:
- if base is destroyed, all supplies stored at base are vanish
[need more mechanics ideas to supply routes base-planet and base-fleet]

Advantages:
Keep starlane conception
Keep supply route conception
Supply as planetary production percent or/and waste PP
Supply as trading goods
Supply bases

Disadvantages:
Supply ships as units to supply other fleets.
_________________________________

OTHER CONCEPTIONS OF SUPPLY ROUTES
If we do not want a "supply ships" maybe the "auto-route creation" is better:
Player picks the fleet, picks suply button and picks the own planet (or picks "autosupply" with closest planet).
Supply route is auto created.
Is possible to pick more than one source to increase supply level.

How many supplies is available:
Player can push a button or special key to show how many supplies are available for selected fleet at local planets/bases.
This value can be connected with planetary production level or buildings (spaceport, orbital dock) and depend from distance in jumps: X jumps give planetary production per jumps.
Planetary production = 100, jumps 15 = 100/15 = 7 supplies per turn.

Advantages:
No supply ships

Disadvantages:
Number of available supplies at planet to send.

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Max Zorin
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Re: Fleet supply system

#8 Post by Max Zorin »

I think the use of supply ships would be good. By supply ships I mean ships that carry fuel, ammo, fighters and spare parts. The idea would be to "free" the attack fleet to move beyond any fixed supply point and attack, resupply and then attack again or at least move. Much like the Navy does now. I am thinking of fleet ships, ones that travel with the battle group. The refueling and rearming of single submarine is not what I was thinking about but it wouldn't be that hard to "auto" resupply if the correct ships were in the same place at the end of a turn. Haven't seen combat yet, these would be vulnerable to destruction if the enemy breaks through the main battle group.

Now, how many, what types and abilities would they have? Most combat ships would have a reserve on board that would allow limited engagements and then they would need resupply. Realistically speaking from what I gather (from present day Navy statistics AND Please correct me if I am speaking from my exhaust pipe) a Carrier Battle group in combat needs resupply once a day in "surge" conditions. There a several type of supply ships but let's keep this easy and just use one for my example. A larger supply (AOE) ship could provide 10 to 15 days of fuel, ordnance and other supplies to a modern Carrier Battle group in heavy combat conditions on it's own. This supply ship is then resupplied by forward bases (Interesting that some navies will use civilian ships ie. Merchant Marines) for resupply. If a Battle Group is cut off or out of range it should be able to operate for a brief period of time depending on the combat load if it has AOE's with it.
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Re: Fleet supply system

#9 Post by Max Zorin »

So my thoughts if you are considering using supply ships (AOE) are as follows. A Battle group (BG) would need three types of aux. ships to resupply. Type 1, Tanker or refinery (if production of fuel could be done on a mobile platform from raw materials, researchable?). Type 2, Ordnance (plus food, spare parts etc) and Type 3, replacement fighters/bombers.

Combine the first two as the ratio of fuel, ordnance and other items would be supplied proportionally as used for ease. The replacement fighters/bombers could be carried on a "Jeep" carriers but this would be cumbersome and why not just use the carrier anyway? The ferring of fighters by flying them in with there perspective pilots is the best option here but how would they travel great distances without refueling? They would need some sort of in-flight refueling. Maybe something like a "milch cow" the U-boats used. A small fuel ship hiding out there in space along the path. I think researching a tech. might be the best way to do this small "hidden base". If the BG is in the supply range great! No need to worry about running low on anything. You still need the AOE to distribute supplies to fleet and meet up with the resupply (merchant marine) ships.

When you are out of supply range is where some thought is needed. An AOE supplies a number a turns of supplies to how many ships? Based on the above notes, a large BG of CV's would need several AOE's to remain combat effective for several turns when out of supply. I haven't seen how big the fleets get in the game so it's hard for me to say but it would be ridiculous to have 20 CV's plus escorts and 20 AOE's in the same GB.

Maybe two AOE's of researchable techs. like Refinery ships and Manufacturing ships that build ordnance and product food? Then you could use just one type of each in any size fleet. Well, just a thought.
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Re: Fleet supply system

#10 Post by PL_Andrev »

If I understand correctly that designers want to avoid special supply ships. In my idea supply ship do not supply a fleet but create a supply route. So, if we have many different supply ships that player does not menage empire, does not plan how to conquest a galaxy but much time manages a supply fleet.

Why not, this idea is good, but the best idea of supply fleet is a fuel management only: tankers (simple ships with fuel containers) and fuel consumption (fleet's speed, mass, engines class, etc).

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Re: Fleet supply system

#11 Post by Max Zorin »

I dislike the idea of micromanaging the fleet logistics too. It doesn't seem an attack several systems/bases away gets resupply the same as an attack one system/base away. It should but it should also cost more. Maybe I missed that part somewhere.
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Re: Fleet supply system

#12 Post by Krikkitone »

Max Zorin wrote:I dislike the idea of micromanaging the fleet logistics too. It doesn't seem an attack several systems/bases away gets resupply the same as an attack one system/base away. It should but it should also cost more. Maybe I missed that part somewhere.
It should get the same resupply... unless it is out of range.

The idea is that the ships are Always either
1. in supply
or
2. out of supply

So a ship that is far out of supply would have penalties because it took a long time to get back into supply.

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Re: Fleet supply system

#13 Post by LienRag »

PL_Andrev wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:26 pm If I understand correctly that designers want to avoid special supply ships. In my idea supply ship do not supply a fleet but create a supply route.
Following Ophiuchus' advice to look into older posts mentioning stealthed supply, I found this very old one.

I'm not sure how exactly to do it in a way that would actually improve the game, but I certainly like this idea of supply routes¹, it seems like it would have interesting strategic implications (opening routes outside of ordinary supply, disrupting enemy supply routes, opening stealthy supply routes in enemy territory², whatever) and since it's building routes it's mostly done once so there's little micromanagement involved.

Obviously building outposts along the way is already a way to have supply routes, and maybe it's a bad idea to try to do more, but I still think it's worth thinking about it.

Maybe they could be Influence projects ? Enemy would have to put a counter-influence project on the right spot at the right time³ in order to disrupt it ?
Maybe these Influence projects could be done specifically on Natives planets, meaning these Planets after being influenced would agree to relay supply to the influencing Empire ?


¹ Spontaneously it makes me think about the Caravans of Civilisation II, which were very nice to play but also intermixed very badly with the pace of the game (as they moved so slowly that the game usually had changed entirely between the moment one sent a Caravan to a place and the moment the Caravan arrived)

² As I mentioned many times already, the Stockpile is a very bad way to allow stealthy disconnected Empires, as it's not KISS and it disrupts the existing supply mechanism (and its very interesting strategic implications), so it's even less KISS.

³ Since I still believe that "cloak-and-dagger" playstyle is the most interesting for Influence competition

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Re: Fleet supply system

#14 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:30 pm I'm not sure how exactly to do it in a way that would actually improve the game
Then it's rather pointless, isn't it? Also that wasnt about stealthed supply routes.

Note that I had scripted supply ships which could transfer PP from one supply network to another (mostly automated caravans). If you had hidden ships, you had hidden supply routes. And if the enemy had good enough detection he could shoot those down (e.g. using hidden ships). It also had a mechanism to throttle PP usage (the unloaded ships created local stockpiles on the planet which provided some PP until it was used up).

And geoff decided the stockpile vs hidden supply so you need also to look there.
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