Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

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Krikkitone
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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#16 Post by Krikkitone »

Josh wrote:Argh, so much I want to say. :|

Regardless of the state of development, I think it merits debate right now: Are there any notable reasons to treat ground combat and space combat separately like many 4X games have done in the past? If so, what are they?

If not, is it better that they happen at the same time? Rather how RTS's often have naval and ground forces simultaneously occupy the same gaming space.
I think the biggest reason is the difference in what they do

Ground combat-gets planets and Keeps planets(from enemes or rebels)... ie ground combat is therefore a method of directly improving your economy, and maintaining political stability

Space combat-projects power, all benefits are indirect
Allows you to expand / use ground troops against your enemy
Allows you to hurt your opponent without benefiting yourself (bomb/blockade enemy)


I think Ground combat also needs to be far more abstract than Space Combat is. (because if you have 5 units that you move around on a planet, it seems far more infantile than 5 ships you move around through a star system] so you just abstract it entirely.

I'd only favor merging the two if space combat was simplified to the same level I'm proposing ground combat be.... ie your space combat strength= # of "ships" you have in the fleet in this system, and you just compare the two numbers in the system to get the result [better tech means cheaper "ships"/PP.. no ship design, etc. some techs could increase ship range/speed]

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IConrad
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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#17 Post by IConrad »

There's a way to keep ground combat highly abstracted without having to totally reduce ship-to-ship combat. I've suggested it in the ship-capturing thread with current activity.

Basically, it works like this: You treat a planet as being, for intents and purposes, a large number of ships each of which are adjacent to and immobile compared to one another. You could also require special weapon-pods that harden marines/troops to the rigors of passing through planetary defenses/atmospheres. From there, each of these "ships" is in fact a 'combat zone' which will have a 'boarding meter' -- the same as any other ship -- with the caveat that, to start with, the planet's zones will show up as a spherical map made up of green "zones". Each 'zone' would be a region (the number of which are determined by the planet's Development level), which can be in one of three states: Green/uncontested, defender controls; Red-Green-stripes/contested, no control; Red/uncontested, conqueror controls.

This would allow planetary combat to occur //at the same time// as ship-to-ship combat. Needless to say, these would require /far/ more troops than would taking over a ship -- with the ground-hardened troops being unavailable for taking over ships but being far more effective for taking over planets. This would require an entire /fleet/ of troop-carriers in order to attempt the conquest of a planet; and said fleet would be poor at ship-to-ship combat.

This would leave ground combat with /some/ eye-candy for the player, as well as a feeling that they can influence the combat (by dropping more troops on the planet) -- but totally abstracted out to the logistic level alone. (Not even strategy). This also simplifies, hopefully, the programmatic tasks required to implement planet-taking, by removing the additional mode of combat and using another system we're already going to implement, for another purpose.

This would also work better, I'm sure, if we allowed for fast-forwarding within ship-to-ship combat. (I.e.; I //know// that my ships vastly outstrip the bad guy's, so I'm just going to fast-forward this combat to 4x normal speed).

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#18 Post by Yeeha »

I fear that separate ground combat that is interesting and separate would slow gameplay down too much in endgame, main problem with such games is that its gets boring when u have too much at hand, too much to control too much to fight, and separate ground combat would effectively double time needed for one combat if has same complexity as space combat. Basicly it means that maximum playable empire size is half smaller as each battle takes twice the time. Maybe compromise - theres minigame inside the space combat when u click on planet small window appears where u can give orders how to siege it and so on and then if you are done or need to focus on space combat athand u simply close window. Ofcourse that means that that minigame shouldnt be very fastpaced or shouldnt need immediate responce to every enemy action.

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#19 Post by IConrad »

Ofcourse that means that that minigame shouldnt be very fastpaced or shouldnt need immediate responce to every enemy action
Oh, I don't know. MoO and MoO II did quite well with the only inputs being how many troops you sent to the planet. There's really no reason for anything more input-wise from the player than just that. By incorporating it into the space-combat phase, you also get the added benefit of reducing, as you pointed out, the amount of time detracting from the player. Once all ship-to-ship combat is resolved, the game could automatically go into fast-forward mode, as well.

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#20 Post by pd »

By incorporating it into the space-combat phase, you also get the added benefit of reducing, as you pointed out, the amount of time detracting from the player. Once all ship-to-ship combat is resolved, the game could automatically go into fast-forward mode, as well.
Independent of it's complexity, we need a way to auto resolve ground combat anyway(similar to space combat). So, while I support a simple, abstracted ground combat. The argument of saving time isn't very strong.

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#21 Post by General_Zaber »

Alright, I've read the feedback and come up with a more simplified combat model, one that requires (in my opinion) little input from the player and still allows the combat to look fancy, and parallel space combat. And credit to Krikkitone for reminding me about intensity and collateral damage.

ZABER'S GROUND COMBAT PROPOSAL, Mk II

For a more simplified explanation, scroll down to the summary at the bottom of the post.

Presentation

GUI

This is what the battle screen looks like when you double click on a planet in the space combat view, although it can also be managed by clicking on the planet once, which will display all the relevant information in a summary on a tooltip also shown below.

Image
I noticed after making my elaborate "concept sketch" that there are far too few troops on the screen to represent how many are fighting. And the black box things are supposed to look like buildings.

Image

Controlling the Fight

The only settings controlled by the user are which units take part in the battle (By being there, their fighting, units you want in reserve must be left in transports) and the Intensity and Collateral Damage sliders, explained under Modifiers. Mousing over a unit would give you it's A/D/S/H/M, double clicking it would order it to retreat onto a nearby transport.

Details

Units

Its clear we don't need an overly complicated roster of units, so I've narrowed all the different types to four, plus militia. All units have five attributes, which determine their effectiveness and order in combat, and the effect they have on the planet. A single unit, represents a whole regiment of troops in the fluff, and they can be named, but they are represented in battle by a single icon, showing one soldier/tank/etc. These are all summed up below (All values assume there have been no research improvements, and the troops are fighting without any modifiers):

__________________________Example Stats Table, (to be reviewed)________________|
UNITS___________|Attack(A)|Defense(D)|Speed(S)|Health(H)|Morale?(M)|Cost(PP/T)|
________________|________|__________|________|_______|_________|__________|
Militia____________|___2___|____2_____|____5___|___2___|____0_____|___N/A*__|
Mobile Infantry____|___3____|___3______|___5____|___3___|___3_____|____3/3___|
Heavy Infantry____|___4____|___4______|___3____|___4___|___4_____|____5/5___|
Armor____________|___6____|___7_____|____2____|___7___|___5_____|___20/5___|
Walkers^_________|___7____|___7_____|____3____|___7___|___8_____|___25/10__|
*Militia are not trained. Instead, when a planet is attacked, it automatically receives militia units equal to its infrastructure, these are not replaced until there are no hostile forces present on the planet)

^Come on, we gotta have a Mech equivalent! It ain't sci-fi without them!

Air Support

Any Fighters (interceptors or bombers) attacking the planet in space combat, confer an Attack bonus to your ground troops. Ship's bombarding the planet simply cause outright damage to enemy units one at a time if there are enough bombs onboard. However, if your troops control enough regions, there is a chance the bombardments will hit allied troops instead.

Unit Stats

A (Attack) - A unit's Attack value, at the moment I think its safe to keep them as solid numbers, if this is too solid, then we can say each unit gets a random _-1 to +2_ modifier every turn.
D (Defense) - The amount of A a unit can sustain over the course of the entire turn before the excess A is applied to its health.
S (Speed) - Used to determine attack order, highest S goes first. All units with the same S are resolved at the same time.
H (Health) - Self explanatory, a measure of the unit's integrity, the amount of damage sustained has little to/no effect on the unit's other stats
M (Morale) - A more abstract concept, "Morale" doesn't actually represent the unit's mental condition, and it is never modified except by buildings or techs. Basically, the total M of your forces on the planet contributes to that planet's Social Allegiance Meter (or whichever equivalent is introduced in v0.5) with respect to your empire. Thus having an indirect impact on all your units as explained in Modifiers.

Battle Math

All units attack once per combat turn, in Speed order, highest first (unless their retreating back onto their transport, which they do at the end of the turn, without attacking). At each "Speed Step" every unit with that speed applies it's Attack value to a random enemy unit. Each unit has a total damage for that combat turn, which starts out as the negative of the unit's defense value. Once the damage is positive, it is subtracted from the unit's health. Damage is applied at the end of each speed step.

Once all damage has been worked out, the total attack used that turn is added together for each player, modified by their collateral damage slider, divided by some suitably large number and the final result is deducted from the planet's population and infrastructure meters.

Neutral Forces on the planet are treated as enemies.

Modifiers
There are four main modifiers for ground combat units. First of all, the two sliders; Intensity is your troop's level of aggression, a high intensity increases attack but decreases defense, a low intensity does the opposite; Collateral Damage is how destrucive your troops are to the planet's infrastructure, high C.D. decreases attack but substantially increases Collateral Damage, the reverse does the opposite.

Your troop's Environmental Preference affects their Speed and Morale, which in turn affects the planet's Social Allegiance with respect to your troops. And finally, the planet's Allegiance meter with w.r.t. you affects your troops Defense and Speed.

Regions

Regions are just for administrative purposes, they have no direct effect on the battle calculations. Their only real purpose is to keep track of how much of the planet each side controls. Every planet has 3-10 regions depending on it's size, plus an additional region for each building. An empire must control at least one region to deploy Armor and Walkers, and an Empire must control 2/3 of the regions to actually "own" the planet and make use of its Orbital Defenses, Buildings etc.

SUMMARY

Basically, there are five unit types, each successively more powerful but slower than the last. Each unit rerpresents a significantly larger group of troops

The planet's environment and its social acceptance of your empire affect your troops capabilites as do your sliders for Battle Intensity and Collateral Damage.

Ships and Fighters attacking the planet itself cause additional damage to enemy ground troops.

Your progress is tracked in terms of regions. You need 1 region to land vehicular units, you need 66% of the regions to "control" the planet. Regions have no other effect.

Faster units attack first, slower units in general have more firepower. All units attack every combat turn, provided their not destroyed by faster units..

You manage the battle simply by offloading troops from transports, setting your conditions for intensity and collateral damage, then sitting back and watching the fireworks.

_________________________

I think I've covered everything, apologies for the long post, the assumptions about unfinalized design decisions and my poor graphics sense, but I hope this system appeals to some of you a little more than my last concept.

P.S.
If five stats are too much, technically Speed can be dropped and simply have all damage resolved at once for the whole combat turn

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention, doubleclicking the system star takes you back to the space combat view.

EDIT: See Above in response to Air Support and the Summary,
Last edited by General_Zaber on Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
The enemy is retreating! As always, there is no cuteness about them. Dammit

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Krikkitone
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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#22 Post by Krikkitone »

General_Zaber wrote:.
Stil too complicated... and the complications invite more complications... where's the air support? you can't tell me an invasion of an earthlike planet by humans wouldn't include lots of aircraft.. perhaps even orbitally dropped submarines and battleships... etc.

I still think it would be easiest if you just had

Army = 23.6 Combat Units (Human) +13.57 Combat units (Giysache)
v.
Army 2=159.74 Combat units (Eaxaw)

the racial modifiers and environment and other situational modifiers would change the strength. (ie landing units might only be at 1/2 strength)

Militia/Rebellions just generate a certain # of combat units
Mech technology would just allow you to build 50% more units for the same price.

All "units" should "act" simultaneously. (or rather the armies should all/both act simultaneously)

This can be modified to allow for multiple armies battling over the same planet too (current empire/ invading empire/rebel groups... or even other empires)

I do like the idea of Regions as a way of measuring success... but I'd probably make it a fixed # of regions

Guerillas= 0 regions controlled *decreases economic production of world
Beachhead=1-4 regions controlled (allows for 'safe' landing of troops) *decreases economic production of world
Contested= 5-10 regions controlled (world is not controlled by any one) *No economic output from world accessible [world counts as totally blockaded... only producing things for internal consumption]
Controlled=11-15 regions controlled (other powers are Guerilla/beachhead) *gets economic production of world

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General_Zaber
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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#23 Post by General_Zaber »

Other than
Krikkitone wrote: where's the air support? you can't tell me an invasion of an earthlike planet by humans wouldn't include lots of aircraft.. perhaps even orbitally dropped submarines and battleships... etc.
That's exactly what I've proposed, it just takes a while to read or write it. Everything else you've suggested would just add more complications. In essence, the only thing you're actually managing is the two sliders, everything else is handled by the game and AI. You don't need to actually _understand_ the battle math (which most of my revised post was describing)

As for air support, I forgot to put that in. Its supposed to increase your units' Attack values.

I guess I could put in a Summary Form, I'll edit it.
The enemy is retreating! As always, there is no cuteness about them. Dammit

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#24 Post by Tortanick »

I'm not so sure I like this idea of my regions, their regions. I'd prefer something more along the lines of fighting in every region at once. Its messy and uncoordinated :)

Also bombing should have political repercussions and collateral damage as the primary penalties, hitting your own men isn't a problem if you fire the bombs before the invasion like MOO2.

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Krikkitone
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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#25 Post by Krikkitone »

General_Zaber wrote: Other than
Krikkitone wrote: where's the air support? you can't tell me an invasion of an earthlike planet by humans wouldn't include lots of aircraft.. perhaps even orbitally dropped submarines and battleships... etc.
That's exactly what I've proposed, it just takes a while to read or write it. Everything else you've suggested would just add more complications. In essence, the only thing you're actually managing is the two sliders, everything else is handled by the game and AI. You don't need to actually _understand_ the battle math (which most of my revised post was describing)

As for air support, I forgot to put that in. Its supposed to increase your units' Attack values.

I guess I could put in a Summary Form, I'll edit it.
That's orbital support... support from ships in space... I'm talking about atmospheric vehicles, etc.
I do think you should have orbital support... as a modifier to unit strength
the presence of ships in orbit gives you a bonus... ie communication and reconnaisance [or it could be the absence of your ships gives you a penalty..because the enemy has taken out your 'satellite network']
any weapons ships have can also modify ground combat ... ie fighters, missiles, beams, all of them. (some weapons might not modify it that much


There is a lot more complications in yours than are just in the UI
1. Assembling the forces... you have four different unit types that need to be a) produced and b) moved around
2. The fact that you can manage individual units (double click to move it back... should we be continuously swapping units in/out of transports?)
3. The fact that it is hard for me to determine the actual strength of my units

My system would let you know the Actual strength of your total army mostly from the time you assembled it to begin with.
the only modifiers would be
1. Environment
2. Fleet/orbital support
3. Situational modifier (are units landing on the planet without a beachhead, are they in guerilla mode, etc.)
4. Random modifier [although this is not necessary, it is easier if we simply say... one army, randomly gets a bonus to its strength, than if we have random units attacking other random units all the time]
5. Player settings: Intensity + Collateral damage

"Fixed" modifiers, ie not depending on the individual situation

6. You could include morale as a modifier (I would have it work based on the social stability of your empire... maybe with modifications based on techs+buildings.)
7. Racial modifiers... although that could just allow 'cheaper' units like tech does.
General_Zaber wrote:
You don't need to actually _understand_ the battle math
THAT is the problem, the approach of FO has always been you should be able to understand the math so you can intelligently manage the things that need to be managed. If the math is "too complicated to worry about" then just eliminate the math

ie your proposal has a random component (which units get attacked).... why not simplify the random component, and just say one side is randomly selected and gets a random bonus of +0% to +100% to its total combat strength.... FAR more understandable.

Why have different units? if they are nearly the same then we should make them one unit. If they are different then that means they take some complicated MM and they should be simplified.

This would be a nice add on, but I think it is more complex than we need.


Basically I'm proposing your model but
1 Unit type instead of 5
1 Stat that the unit has (Combat Strength, not Attach/Defence/Speed/Hitpoint/Morale)

my system also allows bonuses to have a more direct effect

Under my system a 10% increase in combat ability means you can beat a 10% bigger force on average
In your system, a 10% increase in Attack can mean beating a 10% bigger force or can make an enemy force no longer invulnerable.

Also your system has the problem with concentration of forces being a multiplier... ie 10 v. 1 will have less losses on the 10 side than the 1 side. This makes defense complicated. While that is OK with ship combat when fleets are moving around a lot and can retreat, in Ground combat I think it should be different.

if I fight 1 other unit and win, I will lose 2-0.5 units by the time the battle is over no matter how many units I have... (adjusted for orbital support/environment/situation) This allows
1. a ground force spread out over several planets to wear down an invading assault force
2. makes it worthwhile to assault several planets in a system all at once after you take out the orbital defenses. (instead of forcing you to attack them one at a time.)
Last edited by Krikkitone on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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IConrad
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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#26 Post by IConrad »

Tortanick wrote:I'm not so sure I like this idea of my regions, their regions. I'd prefer something more along the lines of fighting in every region at once. Its messy and uncoordinated :)
Well, keep in mind that... at least with what *I* suggested, the zones are only measured by who is in control -- not whether or not there's fighting going on. Basically, think this: >75% Conquerer = Conqueror-controlled. <75% Either = Contested. >75% Defender = Defender-controlled. We'd see multiple ground-combat meters covering the planet at any given time.
pd wrote:The argument of saving time isn't very strong.
No, but if it's an added perk, it's an added perk. :) Anything that increases overall playability of the game without detracting from anything else is pretty much always a benefit, IMO.

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#27 Post by Krikkitone »

IConrad wrote:
Tortanick wrote:I'm not so sure I like this idea of my regions, their regions. I'd prefer something more along the lines of fighting in every region at once. Its messy and uncoordinated :)
Well, keep in mind that... at least with what *I* suggested, the zones are only measured by who is in control -- not whether or not there's fighting going on. Basically, think this: >75% Conquerer = Conqueror-controlled. <75% Either = Contested. >75% Defender = Defender-controlled. We'd see multiple ground-combat meters covering the planet at any given time.
pd wrote:The argument of saving time isn't very strong.
No, but if it's an added perk, it's an added perk. :) Anything that increases overall playability of the game without detracting from anything else is pretty much always a benefit, IMO.
I think a key thing is that regions are NOT actual areas, they are a measure of degree of control

so if
N. Am= 20% Martian forces 80% Earth forces
S. Am+Ant=40% Martian forces 60% Earth forces
Europe+N.Asia=60% Martian forces 40% Earth forces
Africa=80% Martian forces 20% Earth forces
S.Asia+Australia=100% Earth Forces

then for a 15 region planet it would be
Martians=6 regions
Natives=9 regions

the regions do not have 'locations' they are two numbers that meaure how close you are to control of the planet.

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#28 Post by General_Zaber »

Krikkitone wrote: .
I have a feeling your making this look a lot more complicated than it actually is. I know there is a difference between reading a concept and seeing it in action, but this really is quite straightforward.

The thing I don't like about your proposal is that units have only one attribute. That leaves very little in the way of imagination, especially when creating techs for ground combat. Having just one kind of unit seems way too abstracted, and I'm getting the feeling your contradicting yourself when you say five units is too much and then asking for submarines and aircraft.

Units are not managed. The only reason I mentioned that its possible to retreat your units to transports is because its a sensible means of covering your losses when you know your getting nowhere, and its a way of moving troops from one planet to another where ever more forces are required. Just because you can jog your units between safety and combat doesn't mean its beneficial or even practical to really do so.

Strength is simple, if you need a way to track it then just say the basic unit "mobile infantry" is worth one point, then each unit is roughly twice the strength of the previous one.

As for modifiers, your list has more than mine. My modifiers are:
1. Environment
2. Planetary Social Alignment
3. Orbital Support
4. Collateral Damage & Intensity
5. Techs & Race Picks
Bonuses do have a direct affect, The only indirect element is the Morale Bonus

As for the random component :shock: How is one side supposed to be arbitrarily twice as powerful as the other? That doesn't make any sense at all. My random component is just to have a better spread amongst which units attack and take damage
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Krikkitone
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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#29 Post by Krikkitone »

General_Zaber wrote: As for the random component :shock: How is one side supposed to be arbitrarily twice as powerful as the other? That doesn't make any sense at all. My random component is just to have a better spread amongst which units attack and take damage
Which shows you don't even understand the effects of your own proposal.

when units "focus fire" (which they can in your proposal) they are about 2x as effective as units that each individually attack an individual unit. In your proposal that would be amplified with the fact that you have the "defense" that needs to be overcome.
imagine
4 units on each side, all the same stats 5 attack, defense, Health, speed
A unit will DIE if it receives 2 hits in a round
A unit is not affected if it receives 1 hit in a round
That means that even though those 2 forces are exactly the same they won't automatically mutually annihilate... there is a random element, one side might win Totally unscathed because it was Lucky.

So in your proposal one side could easily randomly be infinitely more powerful depending on how they decide to attack the other sides units.

I'm including that random factor because it seems to be desired, but also making it Explicit... I know exactly what the odds are.

ie If I have 3 and my enemy has 2, He has to get a 50%+ bonus to beat me (in one round) I can pretty easily calculate the odds for that
50/100= chance the bonus will be high enough
1/2= chance he will get that bonus.
so 25% chance overall that he will beat me (multiple rounds gets more complicated... but then, over multiple rounds I or him can keep adding troops.)


General_Zaber wrote: The thing I don't like about your proposal is that units have only one attribute. That leaves very little in the way of imagination, especially when creating techs for ground combat. Having just one kind of unit seems way too abstracted, I'm getting the feeling your contradicting yourself when you say five units is too much and then asking for submarines and aircraft.
The point is that any detail that is 'Missing' is only important if we provide that detail in some sense. Ie it is an option that 'should be there' but it is not. My system has aircraft/submarines/artillery support/special forces/flanking/terrain/communications snafus/camoflage+stealth/grav flight capabilities/antimatter power supplies/increasing weapon range/etc. They are all Abstracted into that one stat, so anything that impacts any of those can impact that one stat.

The idea here is 'What is the important decision the player makes'?
That should be the only part of the game that actually exists.... ie
Economy it is Research v. Production so we do it with focus and an economic output that requires no building, just changing focus.

I really don't think "What my Mech:Armor:Infantry" ratio is would work.

The important decision a player makes is

How many resources to devote to ground troops (possibly what race to make them)

How many of those ground troops to put in various locations (and getting them there...Troop transports should only be meeded when moving them outside of your 'connections' between your worlds)

Intensity [although I could see abstracting this now that I think about it, but maybe not... ther is some real decision between the two

Collateral Damage

And all of that is to make sure you
1. get a planet on your side (economically and with minimal political repurcussions)
2. give an enemy economic/political difficulties on one of their own planets.
General_Zaber wrote: Strength is simple, if you need a way to track it then just say the basic unit "mobile infantry" is worth one point, then each unit is roughly twice the strength of the previous one.
Is that an accurate measure of their strength though?

The idea behind 'strength' is that ANY 2 forces of equal strength should be at a 50% of winning (or fighting to a mutual annihilation)

Can you guarantee that for your proposal? I'm pretty sure you can't because there are Way too many variables that interact in complex ways.

Variables that interact in complex ways are bad when the player isn't a part of the interaction.

Having ships with shield points, hit points, damage that they do with weapons, ranges, speeds, etc. is worthwhile because the player gives individual orders to ships and can directly see the results of their orders... they can calculate the results in their heads EASILY.

If I put 5 Mechs down (wth a +4 att for race bonuses) v. 20 Mobile Infantry and 10 Militia (+3 speed +1 health from techs)
can you rapidly tell me what the results will probably be? [and that's without the modifiers that both of our systems share, but in your case they are applied in unique ways.... I'm not sure exactly what a +1 Attack does to the overall result]

In my system
5 units of troops v. 20 units of troops
with no situational modifiers means
EVENTUALLY side 2 wins with 17.5-10 units of troops left
and the situationals just multiply it Directly [although I'd probably keep the orbital fire support benefit somewhat complicated so that there was a benefit to additional ships around the planet... ie a Battleship would give more support that a scout with a laser cannon]

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Re: Preliminary Ground Combat Proposal

#30 Post by MikkoM »

After reading this topic through my current, very early ground combat and ground troop thoughts are as follows:

-Separate stages for space combat and ground combat. However the ability to drop your ground troops during space combat could be interesting.

Reasons: I think that having space combat and ground combat happen simultaneously in one UI window would force the player to worry about too many things during the space combat. I can`t really imagine myself concentrating on possible ground combats while my fleet is still fighting against the enemy fleet, unless of course I use the pause option after every turn. And if I haven`t got time to focus on the ground combat, even if it is completely automatic, the ground combat part of the game looses its potential to offer anything different and interesting that the space combat part of the game doesn`t offer. However even though I am suggesting different stages for space and ground combat, to make it easier for human players to control/observe these things, I don`t have anything against making them happen simultaneously in game time. I also haven`t got anything against dropping your ground troops during space combat, even though this might be quite suicidal if your fleet looses the battle.

- Ground combat UI should be quite simple. Like it has been already suggested the planet where the combat occurs could be divided into regions, which would show to the player how much of the planets surface both players control.

Reasons: Like Pd already said visually representing complex ground battles so that it looks good isn`t very easy. MOO 2 tried to use visual ground battles, but the result at least in my opinion wasn`t very satisfying. It just didn`t look too believable that two armies fighting with future weapons would just meet each other in open space, stand there like musket man and shoot at each other until one of the armies was eliminated. The only possibility that comes to my mind to present good looking ground combat battles would be to divide the surface of the planet and command your ground troops like in Hearts Of Iron. However there hasn’t been any plans to make ground combat this detailed, and having this kind of ground combat could possibly make games considerably longer.

- Players should have a short list (not like in MOO 3) of possible grand strategies to both defend and conquer a planet. These strategies should differ from each other and these differences should be clearly presented to the player.

Reasons: It would be nice if ground combat even though simple would still offer the player some strategic possibilities. This way ground troops wouldn`t just be one more weapon for the ships. These strategies could for example affect things like: how long it takes for the attacker to take a planet and with what man costs.

- Ground troops should have maintenance costs that use the same limited resources as ship maintenance costs.

Reasons: This kind of economics would create a choice for the players between ground troops and ships. This way you couldn`t just have a huge fleet and a huge ground army with out paying a price.

The importance of ground troops could also later be raised by making large scale planetary bombardment damage the planets surface and/or making the citizens of some empires react negatively to these bombardments.

- Intra-empire ground troop transporting to non blocked planets could function similarly to empire resource sharing. (Without visible troop transports.) However the moving of troops wouldn`t be instantaneous, but would require as many turns as the route between the sending and receiving systems would take from ships.

Reasons: This way we could hopefully reduce the need to micromanage ground troops during inside the empire transportation. However if moving ground troops from planet A to planet B would require no time at all then the player/AI could just instantaneously focus his/her/its troops to the front where they are most desperately needed.

- One possibility that I have been thinking would be to use the ground troops also for reducing unrest. The troops wouldn`t remove the problems that cause the unrest, but would make it harder for citizens to display their dissatisfaction.

- I don`t currently have a clear opinion on having just one kind of ground troop unit or several types of ground troop units. However if we will have just one kind of ground troop unit it would be nice to see some where a list of what kind of cool techs your unit has, and what kind of effects these techs have, and possibly the enemies list of techs as well. This way the player would have a clear picture of how possible ground troop techs affect his/her unit’s stats.

This is just a very early collection of ideas for ground combat and ground troops, and I wouldn`t be too surprised if there are some problems that I haven`t thought about in my ideas.

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