Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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wobbly
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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#16 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:22 pm Right now the balance is tipped towards Detection and against Stealth, so I'm not sure that early Detection needs encouragement...
Is this why everyone is currently researching Active Radar 1st instead of Weapon/Armour/Hull Techs or Boosters like robotic production?

Edit: Besides the obvious note that I'm being sarcastic, researching ship stealth is currently linked to researching detection techs. e.g. Half the reason getting stealth tech early is not worth it is, getting detection tech early is not worth it. And vice versa.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#17 Post by Oberlus »

wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:51 am I guess the next question is whether larval krakens should be stealthier than big krakens and what numbers to use.
I like giving less stealth to the the biggest and more dangerous ones: an empire with strong military could ignore the smaller, undetected ones and not mind when they hatch and attack a planet (and get killed), but a weak empire could prefer to be able to see the larval krakens to kill them before they get too strong.
wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:51 am Yeah I'm not sure on balance either but I do have a basic opinion that there should be enough stuff in the universe with some basic stealth (whether monster, special, native) that researching early detection becomes a viable path.
Hmmm...

At start, detection 10
Detection policy, cheap if early, detection +20 (after 20 turns). Cheap policy available as soon as the Militaty Command are built.
First detection tech, 100 RP, +20. This is relatively easy. In most situations you can devote some RP to this tech without screwing your early development.
Second tech, 400 RP, +20. This takes much more but still not a liability for the rest of the Empire's objectives. Let's say it's easy to have this after laser, diamond, GGGs, etc.
Third, 1000 RP, +20. Now this is a costly investment (unless you are already clearly winning).
Last tech, 2000 RP, +130.

I translate those +20 to "+1 detection level", and the final tech as "stealth removed from late game".

So we start at level 1.
At turn 20-40 it's easy to be at level 3 (1st tech + policy), and probably no empire will be level 1 by this time.
By turn 100 most empires will have the 2nd tech. At this time, most empires have enough military slots to keep the policy if needed, so this is level 4.
Rushing third tech without jeopardizing other aspects could get you to level 5 by turn 120, but most empires could get there much later, but sooner than turn 200.
...


Let's make the biggest krakens stealth 15, medium 35, and larval 55, and give them all +20 stealth bonus on GGs.
Requires level 1 to see large krakens, level 2 if they are in GGs.
Level 3 is enough to see medium krakens outside GGs.
Hunting larval krakens would need at least level 4, or 5 in GGs.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#18 Post by wobbly »

I can agree with those numbers. I guess there's a question of how much of a feel bad having colony ships 'et by krakens is but I'd be willing to test it. What about the nests themselves? 25 stealth would line them up with sly colonies. Visible by policy.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#19 Post by Oberlus »

The nests... This is only to be able to see it, but the GG itself would still be visible, right?
I guess making it 25 is OK.

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LienRag
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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#20 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:39 pm
LienRag wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:22 pm Right now the balance is tipped towards Detection and against Stealth, so I'm not sure that early Detection needs encouragement...
Is this why everyone is currently researching Active Radar 1st instead of Weapon/Armour/Hull Techs or Boosters like robotic production?
Yes, right now Active Radar comes usually quite early in the Research Queue; I believe the game to be more interesting when Symbiotics are still able to be stealthy, especially with the new modifications made by Ophiuchus (I believe) about Fleet Unstealthiness and Star Radiation values.
I mean, what is interesting is that Symbiotics are easily countered by AR (or the too powerful Continuous Scanning policy), so they are not unbalanced, but depending on each player's Research Queue there's usually a gap in when each player gets stealth/detection that opens tactical/strategic options.

So making Active Radar even more of a mandatory research doesn't seem to me to really improve the game.

If you want to have an early Detection strategy possible in the game, that may be a good idea, but you need to think more about how to do it without harming the way it works now.
I have no idea how, to be clear.

wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:39 pmHalf the reason getting stealth tech early is not worth it is, getting detection tech early is not worth it. And vice versa.
You definitely have a point there.

Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:37 am The nests... This is only to be able to see it, but the GG itself would still be visible, right?
I guess making it 25 is OK.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:32 am
wobbly wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:51 am I guess the next question is whether larval krakens should be stealthier than big krakens and what numbers to use.
Let's make the biggest krakens stealth 15, medium 35, and larval 55, and give them all +20 stealth bonus on GGs.
Requires level 1 to see large krakens, level 2 if they are in GGs.
Level 3 is enough to see medium krakens outside GGs.
Hunting larval krakens would need at least level 4, or 5 in GGs.
What ?
That's not at all the original idea !
I'm not saying that being different is necessarily bad, but it's a complete upheaval of the game balance so far, it can't be done just on a whim without thinking hard

Nowadays we only have stealthy monsters in fixed positions (like Asteroid Snails) that can be predicted (only in Asteroids, and most of the time in Asteroids with Specials) or that are harmless (small snowflakes, space volcanoes...).
Changing that is a huge modification of the balance of the game !
It would mean at least that it's not possible to send unescorted ships, which changes a lot of the early expansion strategies and probably the whole game economy.

Also, it goes completely against the topic of this thread, Peaceful Hidden Expansion, that is heavily based on, well, peaceful hidden expansion, so sending hidden ships rather than heavy escorts.
Yes, it's possible to be hiding also from monsters, but :
1 - If you try to colonize or outpost a planet, you lose stealth (and imho that shouldn't change); so if you do it without knowing that a monster is here, you lose a (quite valuable) colony ship through no mistake of yours.
2 - Monsters share their Detection values, and also share it with Natives AFAIK, so if you send your hidden ship on a system with natives (even hidden natives) or in the detection range of natives and that a hidden monster is (unbeknownst to you) in the system, you also lose a (quite valuable) colony ship through no mistake of yours.

The original idea is to give stealth to Krakens on Gas Giants, it already tips the balance somehow as it introduces stealthy dangerous monsters that are not stationary, but at least by limiting them to Gas Giants it lets the player know where they aren't and gives him a minimum agency.
So let's keep to that at least for an early try.
It will remove the strategy of going early for Kraken Nests through patience and detection and will require heavy escorts (or dumb luck) to outposts Kraken Nests (don't see how that helps Sly, BTW), but that may be better for game balance, I don't know.

So, if you need numbers :
I believe the baseline Stealth of Krakens is 5, right ?
I would have then, when they're in GG :
Great Kraken +5 (so they're hidden only on heavy radiating star systems)
Krakens + 20
Small Krakens + 40

And nests not hidden.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#21 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:10 pm it can't be done just on a whim without thinking hard
Do you mean you think I (or wobbly) suggested this in a whim without thinking hard?
Rest asured that is not the case.

I've carefully read the rest of your post, pondered your arguments, and I am sure playtesting the suggested changes will actually please you.
LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:10 pm What ?
That's not at all the original idea !
Also: calm down.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#22 Post by wobbly »

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:10 pm Yes, it's possible to be hiding also from monsters, but :
1 - If you try to colonize or outpost a planet, you lose stealth (and imho that shouldn't change); so if you do it without knowing that a monster is here, you lose a (quite valuable) colony ship through no mistake of yours.
2 - Monsters share their Detection values, and also share it with Natives AFAIK, so if you send your hidden ship on a system with natives (even hidden natives) or in the detection range of natives and that a hidden monster is (unbeknownst to you) in the system, you also lose a (quite valuable) colony ship through no mistake of yours.
Italics mine.

It is completely possible to place armour on a colony ship, build robotic colony ships or send armed escorts.

I'd be more bothered by new players getting caught out or the AI not being able to handle the change then an experienced player choosing to risk it and getting caught out. Its also possible to tie it to difficulty settings in the scripting. If you look through the scripting carefully you'll see there are actually a bunch of stuff that is already different in beginner mode.

I'm willing to test either the more ambitious changes (krakens and nests stealthy) or the simpler set of changes (+stealth on GGs). I'm going to leave it up to people like Ophiuchus and Geoff to decide which.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#23 Post by Oberlus »

I agree with wobbly.

If I choose to send a colony ship to/through a system that is currently out of vision range, I might lose the colony ship if there is now an enemy in that spot. If I devote a second ship (scout, armed, or whatever) to go ahead of the colony ship, colony ship will be safe. Same for colonizing a system that could have undetected monsters.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#24 Post by LienRag »

wobbly wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:53 pm
LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:10 pm Yes, it's possible to be hiding also from monsters, but :
1 - If you try to colonize or outpost a planet, you lose stealth (and imho that shouldn't change); so if you do it without knowing that a monster is here, you lose a (quite valuable) colony ship through no mistake of yours.
2 - Monsters share their Detection values, and also share it with Natives AFAIK, so if you send your hidden ship on a system with natives (even hidden natives) or in the detection range of natives and that a hidden monster is (unbeknownst to you) in the system, you also lose a (quite valuable) colony ship through no mistake of yours.
Italics mine.

It is completely possible to place armour on a colony ship, build robotic colony ships or send armed escorts.

I'd be more bothered by new players getting caught out or the AI not being able to handle the change then an experienced player choosing to risk it and getting caught out. Its also possible to tie it to difficulty settings in the scripting. If you look through the scripting carefully you'll see there are actually a bunch of stuff that is already different in beginner mode.

I'm willing to test either the more ambitious changes (krakens and nests stealthy) or the simpler set of changes (+stealth on GGs). I'm going to leave it up to people like Ophiuchus and Geoff to decide which.
Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:42 pm I agree with wobbly.

If I choose to send a colony ship to/through a system that is currently out of vision range, I might lose the colony ship if there is now an enemy in that spot. If I devote a second ship (scout, armed, or whatever) to go ahead of the colony ship, colony ship will be safe. Same for colonizing a system that could have undetected monsters.

You're obviously both right, I wrote in the context of a peaceful hidden expansion, when the strategy is to send hidden ships.

The problem with your proposal (the full one, with roaming monsters being stealthy) is that it both makes this strategy of relying on unarmed exploration/colonization impossible, and makes early detection mandatory.
In both cases removing gameplay diversity instead of the goal of enhancing it.

Maybe it's too easy now in not-too-fully-packed galaxies to gain early expansion by sending unarmed ships preceded only by scouts, so adding stealth for Krakens on Gas Giants would encourage escorting colony ships and arming/armoring scouts, which means the original idea might be indeed interesting.
It would still be possible to send unarmed ships, just not on systems with Gas Giants (which, considering how numerous they are, would be a real quandary, but not an unsolvable one). Obviously again, that wouldn't really help Slys.


Also, as I wrote, your full proposal would mean that it's not the same game anymore, but that's not necessarily bad in itself.
If you add a Galaxy Setting/Game Rule/Whatever "Allow stealthy roaming monsters" then I'm fine with it, anybody can choose how to play then (and if this setting being on forbids unarmed peaceful hidden extension, well it's the player's choice to activate it or not).


LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:10 pm If you want to have an early Detection strategy possible in the game, that may be a good idea, but you need to think more about how to do it without harming the way it works now.
I have no idea how, to be clear.
Actually, I thought of something since that post.

I believe that it's the wrong path to create stealthy threats, because they will not only advantage (and as such make possible) early detection research paths, it risks making early detection mandatory¹.

But creating stealthy opportunities, if balanced well, does benefit early detection without making it mandatory.

So, as we need more Specials, especially related to new mechanisms like Influence (those we have are all the same), Stability and Policies (a Special that would reduce the cost of a Policy could be nice, like some drug that reduces the cost of Terror Suppression since people can get high to avoid too much pressure), some of these Specials could be stealthy - which means that the Empire detecting them early can more easily choose to settle the corresponding planets.

Bonus points if those hidden Specials need (or at least favor) one particular strategy : if you spot the one-per-galaxy Special that makes Solar Concentrators really interesting, you can go towards that tech and hull path while everybody else discard it.
Or again, if you spot a Special that will make a future Policy particularly interesting, you can prepare your Empire to go that way earlier than any of your opponents without the same Detection.


¹ if you can create stealthy threats that do not have this detrimental effect, by all means, go for it !

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#25 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm I wrote in the context of a peaceful hidden expansion, when the strategy is to send hidden ships.
Yeah, me too.
LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm The problem with your proposal (the full one, with roaming monsters being stealthy) is that it both makes this strategy of relying on unarmed exploration/colonization impossible, and makes early detection mandatory.
That's false.
Maybe you never tried hidden expansion?
Armored colony ships can withstand a turn of pew pew then continue their travel. Or be undetected by the krakens and not attaked if using stealth. If not armored, you can send first scout ships (as I already told you).
Try it once with medium or high monsters and tell me if you really need armed ships for hidden expansion.

LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm Maybe it's too easy now in not-too-fully-packed galaxies to gain early expansion by sending unarmed ships preceded only by scouts, so adding stealth for Krakens on Gas Giants would encourage escorting colony ships and arming/armoring scouts, which means the original idea might be indeed interesting.
Oh, so you actually agree, and all that "removing diversity from game" is just like your "interesting", letters put together randomly without any specific meaning.
LienRag wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:12 pm It would still be possible to send unarmed ships, just not on systems with Gas Giants (which, considering how numerous they are, would be a real quandary, but not an unsolvable one). Obviously again, that wouldn't really help Slys.
No, also on systems with GGs. Either it's early game so not many armed krakens out there, or you have stealth parts and ignore the krakens.
Seriously, try the game before being so vehement in your critics to others suggestions.

And the rest of paragraphs that translate to "maybe bad, maybe good": OK.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#26 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:18 pmIf not armored, you can send first scout ships (as I already told you).
that only works with stationary hidden monsters. i think the hidden kraken discussion is interesting, and i can also think of ways of making it not harmful for hidden expansion (e.g. make it passive when having the extra stealth), but anyway it does not enhance it, so this the wrong thread.

I agree with LienRag that stealthed moving threats make detection rather obligatory and that hidden boons are better.

Hidden boons are a good thing for peaceful hidden empires going for detection as the boons are maybe still untaken even if in foreign space. Side note: Those boons must be supply independent to be of use.

Finding kraken nests are currently a great target for Sly. If those are not visible without detection tech (hidden empire cant use scanning) it means Sly are another 100 RP short. So there should be means for Sly to determine where a kraken nest is (e.g. by scanning or by observing where krakens spawn) with low/no extra RP investment.
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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#27 Post by Oberlus »

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the problem with colonizing every GG?
In my games with Sly, my colonization strategy is mostly determined by fuel range. I mean:
If I spot a specially good GG (has a special, or is in a system with a native, or a foreign empire already colonized a planets there and you want to rush there to get the GG before the enemy gets it for GGGs), it goes first in my colonization targets' list, but if it's out of fuel range then I'll get first a GG along that way, or I'll get first and outpost in a small or tiny planet. Other GGs will be colonized before that specially good GG just because I have extra PP. In the end, I end up colonizing in all directions.
This is true during the initial phase, when I don't have stealth stuff but monsters are scarce, but also during the following phase, when I have bio or camouflage asteroid hulls with stealth parts plus I have detection (prerequisite for stealth parts...) to avoid or pass through (stealth) monsters.

So, during the first phase, I don't really fear undetected krakens because they are few and not very dangerous and armed ships can withstand a round (AFAIR). And during the second phase not only I see them but also they don't see my colony ships.


If the game is designed to allow a hidden empires to keep a constant and unmolested colonization without the need to adjust to some inconveniences (armed ships to remove a monster, detection to skip invisible threads, stealth to go through blockades...), hidden species will be overpowered or detection will be even more mandatory than now to non-hidden species.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#28 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:53 am If the game is designed to allow a hidden empires to keep a constant and unmolested colonization without the need to adjust to some inconveniences (armed ships to remove a monster, detection to skip invisible threads, stealth to go through blockades...), hidden species will be overpowered or detection will be even more mandatory than now to non-hidden species.
Fair point...
A question of balance, as always.
But remember that hidden species do suffer penalties anyway (like not benefiting from supply-connected boni).

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#29 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:53 am (e.g. make it passive when having the extra stealth),
Kraken "heat" periods where they get aggressive (and not stealthy) while being stealthy and passive the rest of the time is a heck of an idea...

They could even have some benefits when not in heat (like pooping rare minerals that gives +1 production for a turn) so keeping Krakens around would be a possible strategy if one is able to take care of the dangerous ones.

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Re: Ideas for peaceful hidden expansion?

#30 Post by LienRag »

Sly could even be warned in advance (like two turns before ?) that a Kraken will go in heat...

Another options : instead of having instant maturation, Krakens would have chrysalids for a few turn before hatching anew.

These chrysalids would be stealthy (and the values given by Oberlus would be fine for non-destructive chrysalids) so early detection would be an advantage like Wobbly wanted it to be.
The Chrysalids would need good shields and Structure, and also probably some flak defense so as to make it not obvious to destroy them with fighters.

Sly could maybe (though I don't know how to do that in FOCS) see these chrysalids with lower stealth than normal.

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