Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
Moderator: Oberlus
Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
I am unsure of how you determine battle, but you have the following
Initiate Combat: Simple to understand, but I notice planet defences do not come into play unless defending ships are destroyed.
Obstruct Passage: I don't understand this one - I am obviously missing something, but seems to me to be the same as Initiate Combat
Passive Hide: Does not make sense to be used at all anyway - a troop carrier without weapons, with Passive Hide" seems to be at the forefront of a battle anyway with all warships. Obviously if in a system by themselves is valid if other empire fleets are passing by without stopping.
Defensive Hide: Ok makes sense. I do wonder if the planets defences come into play - I suggest it below, but it may already be happening.
I would like to see the following -
* Initiate Combat: As is
* Obstruct Passage: ?? whatever it is
* Passive Hide: ships try to hide away from battle, but are then restricted from participating for one turn, as they have moved too far out within the sytem while they were hiding to then rejoin the fleet.
* Passive Follow: Passive ships stay with the fleet (like troop and fighter carriers) but always have other warships with "Initiate Battle" between them and enemy ships, and therefore are less likely to suffere damage. However Fighters are still launched and join battle, and if armed with external weapons they will target ships with a setting of "Attack Passives"
* Attack Passives: Ships with this setting will attempt to attack "Passive Follow/Hide ships only, but may take longer to come into range of those ships, and therefore risk destruction by other warships who are protecting the passives. This will allow Troop carrier sniping. If no passives are left or too far out of range they attack other ships.
* Defensive Hide: Hides unless combat initiated by another empires fleets, but planet defences also play a part in the battles.
What I am trying to do here is come up with formations of ships, where Passive ships are behind warships for protection - I believe ths will also make players think about different configurations to make up Fleet Formations. I know at some stage you are working on 3d battles, and this may help as well.
Some of my assumptions may be wrong, as I am assuming that everything sent into battle is always fully in the battle, and current Passive Hide makes not difference.
Initiate Combat: Simple to understand, but I notice planet defences do not come into play unless defending ships are destroyed.
Obstruct Passage: I don't understand this one - I am obviously missing something, but seems to me to be the same as Initiate Combat
Passive Hide: Does not make sense to be used at all anyway - a troop carrier without weapons, with Passive Hide" seems to be at the forefront of a battle anyway with all warships. Obviously if in a system by themselves is valid if other empire fleets are passing by without stopping.
Defensive Hide: Ok makes sense. I do wonder if the planets defences come into play - I suggest it below, but it may already be happening.
I would like to see the following -
* Initiate Combat: As is
* Obstruct Passage: ?? whatever it is
* Passive Hide: ships try to hide away from battle, but are then restricted from participating for one turn, as they have moved too far out within the sytem while they were hiding to then rejoin the fleet.
* Passive Follow: Passive ships stay with the fleet (like troop and fighter carriers) but always have other warships with "Initiate Battle" between them and enemy ships, and therefore are less likely to suffere damage. However Fighters are still launched and join battle, and if armed with external weapons they will target ships with a setting of "Attack Passives"
* Attack Passives: Ships with this setting will attempt to attack "Passive Follow/Hide ships only, but may take longer to come into range of those ships, and therefore risk destruction by other warships who are protecting the passives. This will allow Troop carrier sniping. If no passives are left or too far out of range they attack other ships.
* Defensive Hide: Hides unless combat initiated by another empires fleets, but planet defences also play a part in the battles.
What I am trying to do here is come up with formations of ships, where Passive ships are behind warships for protection - I believe ths will also make players think about different configurations to make up Fleet Formations. I know at some stage you are working on 3d battles, and this may help as well.
Some of my assumptions may be wrong, as I am assuming that everything sent into battle is always fully in the battle, and current Passive Hide makes not difference.
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
Passive hide makes sense for stealth ships that you don't want targeted in combat. I've used it before.
Obstruct makes more sense in multiplayer. In single player the AI has its warships on initiate, so combat still happens.
Obstruct makes more sense in multiplayer. In single player the AI has its warships on initiate, so combat still happens.
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
3d real-time battles have been ruled out as it's not manageable in multiplayer.Daybreak wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:38 am
What I am trying to do here is come up with formations of ships, where Passive ships are behind warships for protection - I believe ths will also make players think about different configurations to make up Fleet Formations. I know at some stage you are working on 3d battles, and this may help as well.
I have ideas on a full formation system but I made no real progress on it, alas.
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
Standard setting for an empire at war with others.Initiate combat
Fleet initiates combat with enemy fleets and blocks their passage through its system.
Useful in multiplayer games, when you don't want to let an empire at peace with you to go sniff your backyard but also you don't want to kill its prying ships to avoid war declarations (diplomacy is weird).Obstruct passage
Fleet blocks enemy fleet passage through its system but does not initiate combat. It may still participate in combats initiated by other empires or fleets, however.
Makes all the sense when you have undetected ships near enemy fleets and you want them to not engage in combat (because you are waiting reinforcements, or these ships are trying to bypass a blockade, or whatnot).Defensive hide
Fleet will attempt to stay hidden unless combat occurs; it will not blockade enemy fleet passage or initiate combat. It may still participate in combats initiated by other empires or fleets, however.
I wasn't aware of this.Passive hide
Fleet will attempt to stay hidden; it will not blockade enemy fleet passage or initiate combat, and will not fire its weapons or launch fighters during combat, even if attacked by other empires during that combat.
Oh, really? How does this work, actually?
If I have "passive hide" ships and "other" ships in a system and there is combat, "passive hide" ships will survive for sure if undetected? I like it.
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
I was also not aware somebody (probably geoff) implemented this? GreatOberlus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:53 amI wasn't aware of this.Passive hide
Fleet will attempt to stay hidden; it will not blockade enemy fleet passage or initiate combat, and will not fire its weapons or launch fighters during combat, even if attacked by other empires during that combat.I can't imagine any reasonable use for this one. Am I missing something, Geoff?
Oh, really? How does this work, actually?
If I have "passive hide" ships and "other" ships in a system and there is combat, "passive hide" ships will survive for sure if undetected? I like it.
Should it give a small stealth boost (at least in some most/circumstances)? I think it should, but micro lurks.
- Always? I think not - one would be probably constantly switching focus in order to get an attack advantage the next turn
- a single +5 stealth if stationary could be appropiate; but its similar to how flux hulls worked before
- like flux-hulls to avoid evil micro? - no, does not fit the fluff
- +1 to +10 stealth if stationary, building up slowly (+1 per turn i.e. +N with N being the number of uninterrupted turns both having the focus and being stationary) - this could also mean an enemy looses sight/interest after shooting some turns at a "lifeless" ship, i think i'd like this; i think the slow buildup makes it not so prone to micro but enables some strategic options (e.g. having a hidden force lurking on your home system for invaders, hiding colony and troop ships away while not using them)
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
Either no bonus, or a fixed +10.Ophiuchus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 11:22 am Should it give a small stealth boost (at least in some most/circumstances)? I think it should, but micro lurks.
- a single +5 stealth if stationary could be appropiate; but its similar to how flux hulls worked before
- +1 to +10 stealth if stationary, building up slowly (+1 per turn i.e. +N with N being the number of uninterrupted turns both having the focus and being stationary) - this could also mean an enemy looses sight/interest after shooting some turns at a "lifeless" ship, i think i'd like this; i think the slow buildup makes it not so prone to micro but enables some strategic options (e.g. having a hidden force lurking on your home system for invaders, hiding colony and troop ships away while not using them)
Since this fleet toggle, Passive Hide, is mostly for scouting, if the bonus only applies to stationary ships, it would only be useful when planting scouts but never to bypass blockades, so I vote for a fixed +10.
Discard +5: Detection levels end with 0, stealth levels with 5. The idea is to avoid the confusion when detection=stealth.
The building-up stealth bonus sounds great to prepare ambushes (if you need the extra stealth, then you are forced to get there before your enemy and stay there for a few turns to get the bonus, sounds good for tactical playing). But for that you need to initiate combat, so not good for Passive Hide. For Defense Hide it makes sense, but Ambushes as a policy also make sense (if you like the Charge, Flanking, Formation, etc. family of polices, I still think all those should be stuff for fleet toggles because it makes no sense that either all my fleets charge or all my fleets don't charge ).
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
a fixed +10 will lead to micro for preparing ambushes, dont forget we always have the one turn delay
The stealth bonus would apply NOT necessarily with the focus (you can get the bonus and choose any other focus).
Maybe we should really add (pre-)combat effects.
that is no longer true in master in the general case (e.g. policies), if we dont change the implementation, we will have to take care about the confusion.
my suggestion would be to have e.g. detection with odd numbers and stealth with even numbers and always add a multiple of two.
(for keeping current balance we would have to double all current numbers).
not good from a fluff point of view?Oberlus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:37 pm The building-up stealth bonus sounds great to prepare ambushes (if you need the extra stealth, then you are forced to get there before your enemy and stay there for a few turns to get the bonus, sounds good for tactical playing). But for that you need to initiate combat, so not good for Passive Hide.
Another idea: a fixed stealth bonus but at the same time set launch bay and weapon capacity to zero.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
Then no bonus.
Whatever to get rid of that PITA that is the one turn delay. I despise it. I consider it the worst unfixed bug of FO.
hands downmy suggestion would be to have e.g. detection with odd numbers and stealth with even numbers and always add a multiple of two.
Gameplay: ships won't attack.
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
well, you can set them to aggressive. so they attack and have the stealth bonus
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
a generic solution is very hard without breaking consistency somewhere (if that is possible at all).
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
With the micro thingy supported by the one-turn-delay bug, changing focus right the turn before the enemy arrives?
I'd prefer not to have to do that. Also, useless against stacks at 1 turn fly, you don't know when to change the focus.
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
i also prefer not to have that. the fixed +10 was your suggestion, not mine. So rather no fixed bonus for the time being.
what about the idea of giving the bonus, but also making the weapons useless in the same step?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
I said fixed or no bonus (no bonus it is) for the non-building-up thing you suggested.
For the building-up bonus you suggested (one turn delay bug is not a problem there), I say use Defensive Hide, not Passive, to not force fleet toggle micro.
Re: Initiate Battle and Formations of ships
ahh ok thanksLienRag wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 8:40 am3d real-time battles have been ruled out as it's not manageable in multiplayer.Daybreak wrote: ↑Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:38 am
What I am trying to do here is come up with formations of ships, where Passive ships are behind warships for protection - I believe ths will also make players think about different configurations to make up Fleet Formations. I know at some stage you are working on 3d battles, and this may help as well.
I have ideas on a full formation system but I made no real progress on it, alas.
I would like to hear your idea
I think by designating them to be Aggressive or as Suppport ships, you can simulate a formation even if in essence linear. You could go as far as designatig warships like frigate or destroyer sized hulls to be in front or behind a battleship hull.
I then think a higher or lower pecentage chance to take damage based on location would be acceptable.
It can add a lot more strategy based on the fleet you are facing