Population curves

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stpa
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Re: Population curves

#46 Post by stpa »

> The boot icon is a problem though to internationalization, it also feels counter-intuitive to me, even though I totally get bootstrapping. I think that is because bootstrapping has nothing to do with boots

i like the boots, why not, lets put boots on the ground, farmers and settlers and miners, they all wear boots. well the adult human ones do at least in wealthier regions.. can stand as symbol for whatever you call it whether bootstrapping (yeah that certainly looses its bootiness in most translations but i think the icon still is good) or pioneerism or whatever.

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LienRag
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Re: Population curves

#47 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:29 am
LienRag wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:27 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:52 am remove the growth bonus from growth specials without using the focus.
WTF ?
? care to write something legible ?
Don't really have time now, sorry.
Basically the growth special had two uses, you remove one, that seems a bad decision to me (less choices for the player).

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Re: Population curves

#48 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:53 pm Basically the growth special had two uses, you remove one, that seems a bad decision to me (less choices for the player).
no, actually no choice would be removed. the choice before was between get-growth-effect on the planet and get-growth-effect on all supplied planets. with that suggestion it would be get-no-growth-effect and get-growth-effect on all planets (i am partly lying here, see below)

yes, one use would be removed. i wanted to do something about applying the "same" effect two times.
but probably that was misguided, as it is actually a different effect and a planet with focus growth should probably always get a pop boost from that focus, no matter if it is growth-special-supplied, has-local-growth-special or whatnot.
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Oberlus
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Re: Population curves

#49 Post by Oberlus »

Pioners/Pionering sound much better for me, as well as its translation.

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Re: Population curves

#50 Post by Ophiuchus »

Cant check source code ATM, so did this get implemented?
Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:03 pm I agree with all the rest you said now. I'm already convinced (several pages ago) that the equation you proposed should be commited.

Code: Select all

Value = min(Target, Value + Factor * Value * (Target + 1 - Value) / Target)
Or this, which is the same but shorter:

Code: Select all

min(Target, Value + Factor * Value * (1 - (Value-1)/Target))
else i'd say following todos:
  • lets rename bootstrap to pioneers
  • +1 habitable size if you put growth focus
  • migration effects of policies
one more thing we could do: lets think of target population as really the highest possible thing to do, cramming in population, so one must put active planning and effort to reach it. And if you put more population there, people die.
So let the normal growth NOT reach target population, but lets say only 75% of it. You could reach 100% target population by using migration policies. E.g. there is some place to cram in people if you do evacuation, but as soon as there is a planet with some space, population will migrate there (if not using some migration policies, e.g. border controls).
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Oberlus
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Re: Population curves

#51 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am did this get implemented?
Merged yesterday.
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am lets rename bootstrap to pioneers
+1
And make it the migration policy that moves population from large, densely populated planets to scarcely populated planets:
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 7:16 am
Oberlus wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:03 pm A policy to move populations from overpopulated planets to planets with plenty of space, more or less the opposite of the Evacuation focus. The effect won't be super simple but should not be hard to predict the results without a spreadsheet. Something like calculating the number D of planets that qualify as destinations (e.g. less than 50% target pop, target pop > 2), calculating the number O of planets that qualify as origins (e.g. more than 80% target pop, target pop > 10), then selecting at most the D most full planets, grabing 1 pop from each, and distributing it uniformly among the D destinations. If D>O, each destinations gets less than 1 per turn, if D<O, not all origins will donate popolation in that turn.
that should be possible. if i got you it means 0-1 pop leaving each source planet and 0-1 pop arriving at each target planet (with the sums being equal/no net change of empire population).
(I didn't reply to this, sorry: yes).
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am +1 habitable size if you put growth focus
What for?
Planets in Growth focus do not get pop-based bonuses, so extra pop is useless?
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am migration effects of policies
Apart from the above, we need one to move people from small colonies to metropoles. That could be put inside metropoles?
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am one more thing we could do: lets think of target population as really the highest possible thing to do, cramming in population, so one must put active planning and effort to reach it. And if you put more population there, people die.
So let the normal growth NOT reach target population, but lets say only 75% of it. You could reach 100% target population by using migration policies. E.g. there is some place to cram in people if you do evacuation, but as soon as there is a planet with some space, population will migrate there (if not using some migration policies, e.g. border controls).
I don't see any gain. Particularly, having a target that is unattainable (unless you do this or that) is quite disruptive with how meters work right now. And in the end it's the same as having the target at 75% from start and make it 100% only when this or that is done, which is what we have now.
For growth, migration policies are already better than not using them (we are asking for them without them giving pop boosts), so I don't think they need a boost. And I don't know why exactly but I don't like the idea of mixing migration with maximum population. I prefer specific policies and buildings for that: Overpopulation, Subterranean/Orbital habitation (one of both turned into a policy), repeatable buildings like terraforming to increase maximum population of few planets (e.g. only possible on metropoles or admin centers) that could be floating cities, megastructures, orbital cities...

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Re: Population curves

#52 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:23 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am +1 habitable size if you put growth focus
What for?
Planets in Growth focus do not get pop-based bonuses, so extra pop is useless?
there are effects which are pop-based but not focus depended (although i think these are minor).
most interesting as a way to keep a colony from dying (or growing) until you have the right pop tech. and an extra boost for a growth-focus liking population.
also increases growth rate and creates population to migrate away. also i thought of combining with a overpopulation mechanic (see below), so you can grow a bit over e.g. industry-focus target meter and not loose that population when switching back (although this smells a bit of micro)
Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:23 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am migration effects of policies
Apart from the above, we need one to move people from small colonies to metropoles. That could be put inside metropoles?
+1
Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:23 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 am one more thing we could do: lets think of target population as really the highest possible thing to do, cramming in population, so one must put active planning and effort to reach it. And if you put more population there, people die.
So let the normal growth NOT reach target population, but lets say only 75% of it. You could reach 100% target population by using migration policies. E.g. there is some place to cram in people if you do evacuation, but as soon as there is a planet with some space, population will migrate there (if not using some migration policies, e.g. border controls).
I don't see any gain. Particularly, having a target that is unattainable (unless you do this or that) is quite disruptive with how meters work right now. And in the end it's the same as having the target at 75% from start and make it 100% only when this or that is done, which is what we have now.
I agree that per default it should behave as normal target meter for consistency. The difference i was suggesting is to have some range where there is no growth and no decline of population.
This could also be done by meddling with the decline formula of course (e.g. overpopulation policy); probably overpopulation should not die, but migrate in the default case.
.
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Re: Population curves

#53 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:47 pm The difference i was suggesting is to have some range where there is no growth and no decline of population.
We have that now, when current=target?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Population curves

#54 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 11:23 amSo let the normal growth NOT reach target population, but lets say only 75% of it. You could reach 100% target population by using migration policies.
No. Target population is the stable level a planet stays at, where (without outside influence) growth is stagnated due to a balance between births and deaths (or the equivalent for your species). Below that, growth increases population each turn towards the target. Above, natural factors reduce population each turn towards the target. The relative rate of growth or decay can be adjusted to be slower(er) when near the target, but the balanced point should remain equal to the target (again, for a planet in isolation, ie. no migration).

Migration could be implemented / modelled two ways:

1) Migration increases population without changing the target population. This can speed up growth or increase population past the target level. To maintain population > target, ongoing migration would be needed, taking population from elsewhere.

2) Migration increases target population at the destination and decreases it at the source. The population-change effects otherwise work as now.


Option (1) is perhaps easier to set up so that the per-turn changes in population between different locations are zero-sum, which is probably preferable, so that any emigration is balanced by immigration of the same amount. Option (2) is probably easier to implement quickly.

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Re: Population curves

#55 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:59 pmTarget population is the stable level a planet stays at, .... Above, natural factors reduce population each turn towards the target. The relative rate of growth or decay can be adjusted to be slower(er) when near the target, but the balanced point should remain equal to the target (again, for a planet in isolation, ie. no migration).
Ok, but how about auto migration (if possible?), So probably first reduce population by growth mechanic and then, if there is still overpopulation and there are valid migration targets migrate that overpopulation.
Geoff the Medio wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:59 pm Migration could be implemented / modelled two ways:

1) Migration increases population without changing the target population. This can speed up growth or increase population past the target level. To maintain population > target, ongoing migration would be needed, taking population from elsewhere.
...
Option (1) is perhaps easier to set up so that the per-turn changes in population between different locations are zero-sum, which is probably preferable, so that any emigration is balanced by immigration of the same amount. Option (2) is probably easier to implement quickly.
i prefer option (1), it will keep growth rate effects and migration mostly separate (and thus hopefully easier to reason about).
and maybe more importantly it would make evacuation more sensible.
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Re: Population curves

#56 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:09 pmOk, but how about auto migration (if possible?), So probably first reduce population by growth mechanic and then, if there is still overpopulation and there are valid migration targets migrate that overpopulation.
Emmigration would not only happen in cases of population > target on a planet.

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Re: Population curves

#57 Post by Ophiuchus »

we got better curves, but not really an increase in growth (for population target size 16 its the same as before the new curves; faster for smaller planets; slower for bigger planets).

any objections to increase growth by 25% ?
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Re: Population curves

#58 Post by Oberlus »

Do we need faster pop growth?

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Re: Population curves

#59 Post by LienRag »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 6:23 pm we got better curves, but not really an increase in growth (for population target size 16 its the same as before the new curves; faster for smaller planets; slower for bigger planets).

any objections to increase growth by 25% ?
With the Growth policy, no objection, go for it.
Without, no.

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