Likes and dislikes for species?

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Oberlus
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Likes and dislikes for species?

#1 Post by Oberlus »

Laenfa dislike George, Gysache and Phinnert, and like Chato, Ugmors and Acirema. Stuff like that.

Any dev interested on implementing it? Or would it be possible with FOCS/python?

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#2 Post by Geoff the Medio »

It should already be possible to add species to other species' likes and dislikes in FOCS. Making that do something would require adding effects simlar to building (or other content) like / dislikes effects that have something to do with the presense of species on planets or ships somewhere relevant, like in the same system or in the empire or on the empire capital.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#3 Post by LienRag »

Not sure that having NO species like and dislike others is the way to go, but having ALL species mildly xenophobic like your proposal suggest seems clearly a bad idea to me, both because it naturalizes xenophoby in a period that (IRL) clearly doesn't need that, and for gameplay reasons.

Having conflicting Influence projects that could create such racial divisions might be interesting, though.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#4 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:46 pm having ALL species mildly xenophobic like your proposal suggest
Don't worry, I'm not suggesting that.
LienRag wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:46 pm seems clearly a bad idea to me [...] for gameplay reasons.
Let's have another useless discussion:
What reasons?

LienRag wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:46 pm it naturalizes xenophoby in a period that (IRL) clearly doesn't need that
WTF LOL
Oh, yeah, and viodeogames are guilty for children killing children, and roleplaying games kills people, and Instgram should be shut down to reduce death-by-selfie rate.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#5 Post by Grummel7 »

Actually my first thought is that this adds complexity for the sake of adding complexity.

I have no problem with having xenophobic races in the game, because they definitely add variety. I don't like having concentration camps, but that's a different story.

Adding other races to the already long list of likes and dislikes just makes the stability management even more complex than it is now. Or did you consider racial (dis-)likes to affects more than just stability?

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#6 Post by Oberlus »

Grummel7 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:08 pm Actually my first thought is that this adds complexity for the sake of adding complexity.
[...]
Adding other races to the already long list of likes and dislikes just makes the stability management even more complex than it is now. Or did you consider racial (dis-)likes to affects more than just stability?
I think lists of likes and dislikes are too long even without species.
My idea, if having values as an intermediate layer to reduce complexity of likes/dislikes lists is not accepted, is to shorten those lists a lot. Species should have less likes and dislikes in general.
Then, having one or two liked/disliked species per species, with some tips to remember (Laenfa dislike Gysache because Gysache eats plants), doesn't seem too much.
But I'm not planning to do anything about this until I've played more and policies are more polished.
Grummel7 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:08 pm I have no problem with having xenophobic races in the game, because they definitely add variety. I don't like having concentration camps, but that's a different story.
I have mixed feelings about that.
If some people declared they feel bad when they found out there's a game that have mechanics allowing the player to work "populations" to death, I would support removing it just for the sake of paying respect to their feelings. It's a game, we don't need it to make the game fun and interesting. But I prefer having the mechanic, the same we can bombard a planet to anihilate its population, or simply declare war on others for the sake of domination, or slavery.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#7 Post by Grummel7 »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:46 pm I think lists of likes and dislikes are too long even without species.
I agree on that. I think if the lists are reduced, some racial relations could be added. But what will they do?

We could use a mechanic like the one for buildings (+/-1 in same system, +/-sqrt(#planets in other systems), +/-4 for capital). The only problem I see is that players have less control about it than with buildings. Maybe indoctrination or some other policy can negate dislikes against the capital species.
Oberlus wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:46 pm I have mixed feelings about that.
If some people declared they feel bad when they found out there's a game that have mechanics allowing the player to work "populations" to death, I would support removing it just for the sake of paying respect to their feelings. It's a game, we don't need it to make the game fun and interesting. But I prefer having the mechanic, the same we can bombard a planet to anihilate its population, or simply declare war on others for the sake of domination, or slavery.
Of course 4X games do involve conquering and killing. :evil:

Players need a way to empty a planet and in the end Evacuate Planet is also a way to kill the population, if they have nowhere to go. Thinking about it, we could possibly restrict it, e.g. you cannot evacuate a population into oblivion if Diversity has been adopted.

On the other end, to replace concentration camps, we could add a way of sending troops to exterminate a population. Maybe instead of invading, you use a button "Exterminate" and then after eliminating the planet's troops, each trooper will reduce the population by one. When the the planet becomes empty, you get it as an outpost. This could also require a special policy and xenophobic species should have easier access to it. Or maybe the troopers themselves have to be of a xenophobic race.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

we could refluff/rename concentration camps - using mind tricks to make people work themselves to death is usually not considered the same as death/labor camps. just dont know if it ties so much with the supremacy/xenophobic theme so much
Grummel7 wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:40 pm Players need a way to empty a planet and in the end Evacuate Planet is also a way to kill the population, if they have nowhere to go. Thinking about it, we could possibly restrict it, e.g. you cannot evacuate a population into oblivion if Diversity has been adopted.
i totally intend to rework evacuation to make it depend on free habitable space. if no habitable space left evacuation would be slow and the people would go to full planets where they will probably die the following turn.

"dying out", so decreasing pop when (pop > max pop) might be slow, but lower stability.

there might be a policy to allow higher max population for exchange in production/stability/supply (dont know yet).

there might be a policy to speed up/force fast evacuation.
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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#9 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:35 amrename concentration camps
"Extermination Camps" perhaps?
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:35 amrework evacuation to make it depend on free habitable space. if no habitable space left evacuation would be slow and the people would go to full planets where they will probably die the following turn.
Maybe consider buildings like "Refugee / Immigration Centre" that preferentially pulls migrants from evacuations, and just generally boosts a planet's growth rate by pulling from other planets with suitable species. Not sure how it will impact micromanagement, but worth considering. A policy to boost migration could also work, or perhaps add an effect to Colonization that pulls population from larger planets to smaller ones.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#10 Post by Ophiuchus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:28 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:35 amrename concentration camps
"Extermination Camps" perhaps?
No camps in the name. It should look like free will/ a good thing on the surface. More a self-sacrifing ideal/policy thing combined with "Supermotivation Arcologies".

Visible fences and brutal authorities is much too 19th/20th century. We got all the comforts and short-cuts and must-be-at events and lots of reachable goals to achieve and smiling service personell ready to recommend the best treatment for anybody feeling unmotivated.
Geoff the Medio wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:28 am.. A policy to boost migration could also work, or perhaps add an effect to Colonization that pulls population from larger planets to smaller ones.
i like it. having migration all the time without having to do something certainly will make the universe feel more alive i guess.
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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#11 Post by Oberlus »

Ultimate Sacrifice: population willingly sacrifice themselves by working till death.
The fluff for the effect then should require high stability to make sense, since stability represents the will and capacity to work for the empire and accept its policies. (Or trigger only when the empire is in a dire situation, if the scripting allows to check when the empire is losing battles or planets, or when the IP stockpile is negative.)

Maybe one can just rename Conc. Camp to Death by Party (or "Teletubbies Coaching") and make it boost both stability and production while building up a malus to target population the longer the building is in place. The fluff then makes sense: people willingly kill themselves by working for the empire. But it doesn't get along well with being a xenophobic species that wish to obliterate all other species in the galaxy, if it is forced to rule the empire with a smile towards those that plans to kill (setting the best policies for them in order to be able to kill them off), and it feels so wrong, even stupid. Any empire (xenophibic/evil or not) should be able to apply such a policy (at least if one only considers coherence with the fluff; democratic societies also do ultimate sacrifices), and the one kind of empire that would benefit the most from using an extermination policy, and that would make more sense to use it for coherence, the xenophobic empire, is the one that makes less sense to use it with this happy-dying fluff.

The whole thing is still awkward in my opinion, like a failed attempt at being euphemistic: to avoid using in a game a concept of extermination from real history, the concept is covered in sugar, but it is still the same, killing off people because it serves a purpose to the player. If it is bad to roleplay such things, what is ultimately wrong is the whole mechanic, and the dressing of it with nice words seems to me lame and a bit of whitewashing (it's OK to kill people as long as you do it in a way that cannot be directly related to Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Leopold II, etc.; if you "liberate" a world to kill the people off, why don't you call it by its real name?).
(Edit: cannot)

Could we find a name for it that is not a direct reference to nazism (if this is the actual problem) but that is still a word for something abhorrent about killing people against their will?

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#12 Post by wobbly »

You can call it an educational facility if you want something more current century.

Alternatively you can probably find an example from cyberpunk fiction.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#13 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:59 amIt should look like free will/ a good thing on the surface. More a self-sacrifing ideal/policy thing combined with "Supermotivation Arcologies".
The point of the building is to gameplay-model the organized and orderly extermination of the population of a planet by killing them, dinstinct from just having troops shoot or ships bomb the population wherever they are found. It's an "evil empire" type option for players who are role-playing that sort of pro-xenophobic empire and who don't mind other in-game species / populations / empires condemning or otherwise negatively reacting to the action, or who specifically want to make a show to their favoured population that they are getting rid of the undesired population.

This general concept is and should not be a specific reference to any real-world events, and a name that doesn't specifically evoke any real world events would be preferable, I think.

If you want to have a less-easily-criticized or more-easily-spun-by-PR option for population elimination, then a different sort of building or other gameplay mechanism would be more suitable...

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#14 Post by LienRag »

I agree with Oberlus on the hypocrisy of calling concentration camps by another name, but still the name is really cringy.
I don't really have a solution there.

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Re: Likes and dislikes for species?

#15 Post by Oberlus »

Wandering in Wikipedi I found "Internment", as a form of imprisonment without indictment.

To make the concept specific to work, we could use Forced Labor Internment, and use it as a replacement for Conc. Camps (maybe make the killing effect slower). But the purpose of such a place is not to kill off people, but to force them to work, killing some in the process due to bad hygiene and nourishment, little to no health care and excesive efforts. But this is just a brutal form of plain and simple slavery, and should not be the obvious choice for depopulating planets.

There is no other word for extermination camp ("Extermination Internment" sound wrong) as a place were the aim is to kill people as fast as possible.
We could do something related to food processing? It's really gross but not related to relevant historical events and possibly coherent with relations between aliens (it's not cannibalism if it is a different species). Population Reprocessing Centers: kills population really fast but does not give back huge PP amount but something else (IP, I guess, from delicatessen sent to own worlds).

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