Population growth, food, water.

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truepurple
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Population growth, food, water.

#1 Post by truepurple »

I am playing 4.10.
All this is connected. Please reserve judgement till you read the whole post. I recognize this is a large change, maybe this could be a mod or something?

Population points represent billions, and show someone the actual total of population.

Growth of your population acts as a percentage. This means the more people you have, the more people you get from those people. But there will be modifiers to that growth percentage, more on that latter.

People need both food and fresh water to survive. Certain foods will need more or less water to grow. You assign production to make food. You choose what food to produce based on the planet and what stuff you have access to grow. For example, if you expanded to a planet that has "caretaker's fruit", now you have access to that crop and can grow it on planets of the same type, note: terraforming changes your options for food production, like maybe only deserts can grow caretaker's fruit, also terraforming is more complicated in this version.

Both food and water can be shipped around, maybe MoO2 freighter style.

Two types of water in the game.
Base water, represents total water on the planet both usable and unusable. This number never changes on its own no matter how much you use it. But base water value will change if you ship water from one planet to another. If enough water is shipped from one planet to another, it changes basic type. So you could ship lots of water from a ocean planet to a desert planet and get two moderate planets. Though maybe planets aren't sharply divided as one type or another and it's more gradual along with the effects. Base water can be gathered and shipped from other sources than planets too, like asteroids, which can be used up, water wise.

Usable water. For drinking or crop growing usable water is base water that has been made usable. Various planets have a certain amount of usable water they produce each turn on their, converted from unusable water. Various means can be used to convert base water to usable water. And of course using the water turns it unusuable

Unusable water. The amount of usable water + unusable water on a planet = it's base water.

When water is shipped, it retains whether it is usable or not, and can't be mixed/or can be mixed and all turns unusable.

Events like, floods, droughts, mega storms etc for players to deal with, and means to deal with them.

Colony's take population and transplant them(subtract from the planet they came from). They can be used for new planet colonization or for transferring population between planets. Maybe a quicker produced ship for moving population around, but not just putting people on freighters.

Ships also use a small amount of people which still need food and water, If you scrap a ship, it will travel back to its home planet to redeposit the people there. Depending on the ship and its technology, being out of range of the supply line for too long the ship runs out of food and water and its crew die. But food and water can be collected from planets. People dying on ships(including from destruction), causes unhappiness back at home relative to the amount of people that died (not much though)

If a planet runs out of room(which will be the planets absolute size, not it's type, but certain planets will be trickier to find space on, like water planets), or people don't get enough food or drinkable water they die. Word will always get out of you cause the death of your people, which will have an effect on overall happiness. And happiness will have an effect on how much food, production, science and water converted to usable, as well as total growth percentage.

Housing will need to be built for survival too. If you don't have enough housing, people die and get unhappy directly too. The game will automatically assign enough production to make new houses when your population expands, but you can choose to do less than this if you need to rush production on something. Once you have enough housing say for a billion people, you won't need to produce more housing unless your population goes above a billion.

There are measures you can take to increase or decrease a populations growth as needed.

A win condition. If you get X amount of people where the average total happiness is above X amount, you have built a utopia, and win! But you can keep playing if you like.

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Oberlus
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#2 Post by Oberlus »

FreeOrion had food long ago, but it was removed. You can search in the forum for the old discussions (found it, not that hard: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6426&hilit=Food). The bottom line is that FO is focused on galactic conquest and dimisses resource management game, specially if it implies repetitive actions turn after turn (micromanagement). All like it more now, its faster an funnier.

truepurple
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#3 Post by truepurple »

If you think this idea was just "add food to the game" You didn't read it at all. This idea is a whole system that would fundamentally change the way the game plays. So forget how it use to work, or how it has worked in other games(I have NEVER seen this idea in any game), or whatever. Judge this idea on it's own merits, first you got to have read it though.

Actually, the way growth would work in my way is way bigger than the food part you sneer at which is probably different than how whatever was in the game before

For example, if you have a planet with 8 billion people, verses two planets with 4 billion people, all else being the same, the increase in population would be the same. This means there is no reason to expand to a new planet, unless you run out of room or resources.

Also outpost would have populations too, and would be the same as colony's really except for outposts will be set with instructions to limit their population growth.

Because there is no reason to expand, for expansion sake, you naturally have less to deal with, which would REDUCE micromanaging. You mention not a single repetitive action that would be involved in this suggestion.

But more importantly, it would make the game about protecting a nation of people and bringing them into a bright future, and not so much about "conquest". it would give you reason to care if your people live or die, rather than make them just numbers that fill up planet containers. Which would make the game much more immersive and fun, IMO. But we each have our own tastes.

My idea would allow for a victory where you can get X amount of population and happiness and win from that, and it could be challenging to do so, and thus fun. How could that victory condition possibly work with the current system? Happiness is mostly irrelevant currently and no challenge to get, nor much control over it. And population size is a matter of number of planets controlled & tech + time, which means such a victory condition would be meaningless currently.

- -- ---

This game is micromanagement free? Please, dealing with production on planets not connected, dealing with tech which is a nightmarish mess and managing fleet, ohhh so not micromanagement free or fast. That's nothing to do with my idea, but it irks me to have you sneer with vague accusations of adding micromanaging for it's own sake to some supposedly pure lean game....

Face it, you didn't really read my OP which you are replying to, Orberius. You gave it a glance over, and lumped it in with something entirely different before breezily dismissing it.

truepurple
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#4 Post by truepurple »

Your rudeness and blindess is growing by leaps and bounds Oberlus, as well as your hypocrisy as you act lazy in reading my idea that you respond to.
Anyway, this idea indeed is just about adding food and water and complicate population management. Isn't it?
The answer to your question is, No.
Much more than if we have to keep sending water freights between planets.
"Keep sending", it's true I didn't get into nitty gritty details but is your imagination so bad that you can't see with what I did mention.

Freighters can be produced automatically whenever nothing else is being produced. Otherwise you can choose to make them. Basic necessity of your people will automatically take up available freighters and these freighters will operate invisibly like they do in MoO2. If there is a lack of supply, one can prioritize one place over another for receiving food and water. Moving large amounts of water will take a decision, but once you decide if and how much water to transfer, the game will keep doing that till the target is reached, which would be even less micromanaging than it is to make a colony ship, pick a flight path, check ahead for danger, and then remembering to choose to colonize it.

Finding resources and deciding what to do with them is key to any 4x, including FreeOrion as it is now. There are many automatic systems that can be implemented to reduce what players have to do to just making important decisions. If you fail to see how micromanaging could be reduced even further than how things are now with these ideas, well that's your lack of vision. Well you do play this game that's full of micromanagement already, much more so than my suggestion.

The purpose of these ideas is to make the challenges of surviving and thriving, like any survival game. The difficulty should not only come from opponents.

If you do not see the value of a win condition of getting a certain amount of population with them being happy, then you need to give more effort in comprehending the point of this idea.

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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

Food and minerals resources were in early freeorion and removed because they did not seem to carry their weight (not adding interesting gameplay vs adding management).

Freighters etc were also suggested multiple times and shot down (last time was when i looked for a sneaky way to support disconnected planets) because of necessary management. Supply (and to a much lesser degree the stockpile) is the freeorion solution to resource distribution.
The other resources (research and in master, influence) are location independent, so there is no need to manage distribution.

Also: effects/production usually depend on supply networks rather than planet (e.g. one building provides the complete supply network with its effect). Shipyards are the most notable exception.

As far as I can speak for the project, there wont be any additional location dependent resource in freeorion, ever.

Also we prefer solutions which remove repetitive smalls choices over automation of those
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:38 amAs far as I can speak for the project, there wont be any additional location dependent resource in freeorion, ever.
Seems rather strong / overstated as written. Various stuff has local only impact, like ship species, and "location dependent" would include growth specials that are distributed by supply lines, and I'm not sure how asteroid extractors work, and additional resource mechanics haven't been explicitly ruled out...

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LienRag
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#7 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:10 pm Judge this idea on it's own merits, first you got to have read it though.
We don't. Some of us may if they want, but we don't have to anything.
Code a mock-up, and we'll see how if works.

Of course you can offer to contribute ideas even if you can't code (that's what I've been doing so far, and some have been integrated into the game) but you have to understand that the people doing the actual work (coding, but also participating in the forum to help pick up the good ideas in order to try to adapt them to the actual game) will do that based on their own curiosity and appreciation of these ideas, which sometime do not coincide with their objective value, nor with the subjective value the one who proposed them attaches to them.

Many more of my ideas were rejected or ignored than accepted, some because they were bad, some because they were not that adapted to the game, many (imho) without really good reasons.
What can I do ? When I'll be president of FreeOrion, Incorporated I'll be able to have them included in the game, but waiting for that the only thing I can do is try to present their advantages (and, more importantly, how they fit in with the other game mechanisms and interact positively with them) clearly and politely.

truepurple
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#8 Post by truepurple »

LienRag wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:09 pm
Judge this idea on it's own merits, first you got to have read it though.
We don't. Some of us may if they want, but we don't have to anything.
Well technically speaking, yeah. You could spam this topic with gibberish, and only the mods could stop you.

But realistically speaking, if you don't even know what someone is suggesting, then you got no grounds to criticize it. You're just playing word games now.

I don't want repetitive meaningless actions required that don't contribute to the game either, thankfully that is not what I am proposing!

Has any of you played survival games? Imagine a survival game, but scaled up for a whole group of people in space. Maybe very little like Frostpunk (not in mechanism, but in concept) though I've never played it.
Any of the nitty gritty bits can be fully automated so that players are only left with the meaningful decisions that impact whether their people thrive or die. Again, the point of this suggestion is for what we struggle against be not only the AI or players, but the environment.

It does not sound like the games previous implementation of food did that, so that is a invalid comparison. I have never seen any 4X use the system I am purposing, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#9 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:02 pm
Has any of you played survival games? Imagine a survival game, but scaled up for a whole group of people in space.
Interesting (really), do you plan to code it ?

Because it's clearly not FreeOrion.

Maybe it can be a FO mod (though I don't see how), if you want to code it.

truepurple
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#10 Post by truepurple »

LienRag wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:09 pm
truepurple wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:02 pm
Has any of you played survival games? Imagine a survival game, but scaled up for a whole group of people in space.
Interesting (really), do you plan to code it ?

Maybe it can be a FO mod (though I don't see how), if you want to code it.
I don't know how to code, I really wish I did.
Because it's clearly not FreeOrion.
What is "Free Orion"
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Living breathing universe? Well that's a lie, currently. My idea would bring it much closer to that ideal. Are you saying who ever wrote that description, was misdescribing FO ideals?

What else is FreeOrion? It's a 4x, this idea is specifically designed for 4x's. It's something I've wanted to see in a 4X for a long time, but of all the various 4X's I've played, none got close. But almost all 4x's are corporate games where getting heard is very hard. FO is the only player made game like this that I know of, thus I'm hoping my dream 4X game could finally be realized.

My idea does not mean you can't also invade.

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Oberlus
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#11 Post by Oberlus »

Oh, you reported me. That's the spirit!
I wonder if I should punish myself with a ban or something or let Geoff waste his time doing it.
Well, why don't we get to an agreement? You stop making silly questions and critizicing me for critizing your silly questions and bad attitude, and I stop talking to you.
Wouldn't it be simpler if you just ignore me as I am expected to ignore you? You can add me to you foe list and you won't see my posts.

Edit: I'll autoban myself for a couple of days to reflect on my silly and childish behaviour.

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LienRag
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#12 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:23 pm FO is the only player made game like this that I know of, thus I'm hoping my dream 4X game could finally be realized.
Well, not with that attitude...

Basically, you're asking people to do all the hard work to make a game to your liking, which is quite different that the current direction the game is going.

If you rethink your ideas to make them coherent enough to convince a dev (probably not one on the team, they're swamped) that they're worth a shot, and particularly if you're able to make them work with what exist, why not propose to make a mod.

But I believe that mods are to be implemented after the 1.0 version is released, so that leaves you time to learn to code (by the way, the CS50 course from Harvard, accessible online for free, is incredibly good for beginners)...

truepurple
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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#13 Post by truepurple »

LienRag wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:31 pm
truepurple wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:23 pm FO is the only player made game like this that I know of, thus I'm hoping my dream 4X game could finally be realized.
Well, not with that attitude...
What attitude?
Basically, you're asking people to do all the hard work to make a game to your liking
"All the hard work" Do you expect everyone who proposes ideas in this forum to code it themselves? Is your reply to all suggestions, to essentially call the suggester lazy? BTW what language is this game coded in?

I am trying to convince people that they would like this idea too if given a chance. This could be something that lots of people find fun while still keeping in the basic concept of FO
which is quite different that the current direction the game is going.
This game is a work in progress, and what it can or should be is up for discussion, or am I wrong?
If you rethink your ideas to make them coherent enough to convince a dev (probably not one on the team, they're swamped) that they're worth a shot, and particularly if you're able to make them work with what exist, why not propose to make a mod.
I did mention that possibility at the top of the OP. As far as making my idea "more coherent", complex ideas are very challenging to describe succinctly. Also the finer details are a work in progress. And you too give a distinct TLDR vibe in your reply. If you want to help me make this idea more refined and "coherent" I would welcome the help. But just vaguely telling me to do that without helping, meh, not helpful.

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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#14 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:48 pm
Basically, you're asking people to do all the hard work to make a game to your liking
"All the hard work" Do you expect everyone who proposes ideas in this forum to code it themselves?
No, only the ones that insist after they've been told that the devs are not interested/that it's not the direction that the game is going.

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Re: Population growth, food, water.

#15 Post by LienRag »

truepurple wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:48 pm BTW what language is this game coded in?

FreeOrion is coded in C++, parts of the content in FOCS (which is partly intuitive and partly quite hard to follow - but anyway it's supposed to be deprecated one day or another), AI in Python, and the graphical engine is supposed to migrate to Godot.

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