Stealth for Supply Lines

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Ophiuchus
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Re: Stealth for Supply Lines

#16 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:18 pm Or remove supply stealth on starlanes that bump with other empire's supply (if you don't let them pass, they know you are there).
Thats what I originally thought "soft" hidden starlanes (not exerting supply pressure). The main problem I see is that you have to detect a starlane to not exert pressure.
So what happens if two empires have a stealth higher than the others detection?
Does their supply bump or does it overlap?
Oberlus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:18 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:46 pm Should stockpile focus lower supply?
- Stockpile focus is seldom used (empires going for distributed supply do get stockpile techs that make it unnecessary to set the focus), so the change would have little effect.
Ah I should have explained. I would like to have a focus for lowering local supply (for hiding). And thought to reuse stockpile focus for that.
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Re: Stealth for Supply Lines

#17 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:32 am
Oberlus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:18 pm Or remove supply stealth on starlanes that bump with other empire's supply (if you don't let them pass, they know you are there).
Thats what I originally thought "soft" hidden starlanes (not exerting supply pressure). The main problem I see is that you have to detect a starlane to not exert pressure.
So what happens if two empires have a stealth higher than the others detection?
Does their supply bump or does it overlap?
Overlapping is forbidden. Fluff wise, regardless of being hidden or not, supply logistics imply controlling the space.

If we add to the current mechanics the stealth value of supply, we could do something like this:
- Supply propagates exactly the same we have now. Stealth of supply doesn't affect supply strength or propagation.
- For foreign empires with enough detection, show normal supply drawing.
- For foreign empires with not enough detection:
-- If their supply is not clashing with a hidden supply, do not draw the hidden supply.
-- If their supply is clashing with a hidden supply, draw unknown supply (neutral color, probably the color of "unowned" starlanes) supply.
- Draw foreign supply as usual, but add indicative egde terminations for player's own supply:
-- If supply reaches its end (nothing stopping it), draw the lines as currently.
-- For supply that is stopped prematurely (bums on another supply or is cut by a foreign warship), draw something like X, /, || or even an arrow pointing at the direction to which supply is clashing.

So if two empires can't see each other and their supply bumps, they would see the arrows at the end of their supply lines and the neutral-colored supply (unknown empire) at the other side of the starlanes where supply bumps.

Ophiuchus wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:32 am Ah I should have explained. I would like to have a focus for lowering local supply (for hiding). And thought to reuse stockpile focus for that.
Could you explain the gameplay benefits of that?
I'm trying to imagine it, without much success:
- If you want to keep your planets hidden and for that you need to set focus to something different from research or production, you are shooting your foot, unless it is a special focus that boosts stealth and production/research/influence. This would be less onerous iff only a few planets need to be kept hidden, but I struggle to imagine situations that would benefit from this, except for a sneak attack backed up with a sneak colony for refuel behind enemy lines. And in only that is the case, I think it is overdoing it to provide a special focus only for that.
- If you don't need that focus to stay stealthy, then you won't use it.

A priori, I like more the policy way to increase stealth and or stockpile and decrease supply, for distributed-hidden empires, and once you have that you won't use any focus that lowers your overall output except to get badly-needed extra stockpile extraction.

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Re: Stealth for Supply Lines

#18 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:18 pm
Ah I should have explained. I would like to have a focus for lowering local supply (for hiding). And thought to reuse stockpile focus for that.
Could you explain the gameplay benefits of that?
I'm trying to imagine it, without much success:
- If you want to keep your planets hidden and for that you need to set focus to something different from research or production, you are shooting your foot, unless it is a special focus that boosts stealth and production/research/influence. This would be less onerous iff only a few planets need to be kept hidden, but I struggle to imagine situations that would benefit from this, except for a sneak attack backed up with a sneak colony for refuel behind enemy lines. And in only that is the case, I think it is overdoing it to provide a special focus only for that.
Its not intended to help stealth a whole empire, just some parts you want your opponents to overlook.

E.g. it would also help to hide your outpost/colonies being established by suppressing changes of supply lines.

I also think having a focus only for local supply stealth is too much, so it should give a benefit (like increasing stockpile extraction). It also fits the dichotomy between supply and stockpile. The question for me is rather if using such a stockpile focus is too much a nerf - but that is rather a balancing question.

There could also be policy which triggers this e.g. smuggling policy adds stealth to the planet and buildings and decreases supply if you set stockpile focus - and maybe allow some refuel.. through blockade (based on age of focus).
Oberlus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:18 pm A priori, I like more the policy way to increase stealth and or stockpile and decrease supply, for distributed-hidden empires, and once you have that you won't use any focus that lowers your overall output except to get badly-needed extra stockpile extraction.
Well, that also. You would still use it for special ops though.
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Re: Stealth for Supply Lines

#19 Post by Oberlus »

I see now another use case:

Hidden empire that is losing the research race and enemies got to see its planets: switch to focus that boosts planetary stealth the colonies under attack until you get the next planetary stealth tech.

Plus the already mentioned sneak attack by a not-hidden empire: sneak a hidden colony (can't be outposts because those doesn't have foci) for resupply.
But this one has two problems:
First, that the turn the colony is created it will be visible to the enemy (if under radar) because focus won't be set until next turn, so the utility is only when you settle out of radar, and also that the supply disruption will also be visible (even when out of rathar) during a turn if it is not set in a system with enemy planets. Maybe this 1-turn delay can be fixed somehow.
Second, that if you remove all supply from that colony, you can't resupply and I can't see the utility of such sneaky planet.


Both cases require a stealth boost on certain colonies, and so the planetary focus seems the way to go.
But I feel uncofortable with the idea of merging stockpile boost with stealth boost + supply nerf. What if I want to set a certain colony to stockpile (to let some other disconnected colony somewhere else develop faster) and that makes that colony to disconnect from supply? Maybe we want a dedicated focus for stealth boost + supply nerf.

Maybe this could be achieved also without a focus but with a policy that boosts planetary stealth and nerfs supply of colonies/outposts that are not supply-connected to the capital, and that lets (hidden?) ships to refuel at systems with and owned planet regardless of supply. That would reduce the situations in which you can benefit from it (you could not set a sneaky outpost too close to your own supply), but it would solve the 1-turn delay and would not mess with foci.

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