Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Remove base hulls (BH) and shipyards (SY)?

Do not remove anything.
4
40%
Remove BH, and leave SY as is (in-system colonization with regular ships, more expensive and slower than currently).
1
10%
Remove SY, increase build times of advanced SY, do not allow for ship construction until happiness>5, re-purpose BH as a cheap, weak, slow ship (in-system colonization cheap as currently).
2
20%
Remove BH and replace it with a dedicated in-system colonization method. SY removal is a separate issue.
3
30%
 
Total votes: 10

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Oberlus
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Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#1 Post by Oberlus »

Base Hull (default/scripting/SH_COLONY_BASE.focs.txt) has the purpose of allowing to colonize/outpost/invade planets in the same star system it is built.
It is the preferred form of in-system expansion particularly in early game (when PP are more scarce) because it's (at least slightly) cheaper than any other hull with internal slots. But it's not really gamechanging due to the very small difference in PP cost when you compare the total cost with the outpost/colony part mounted. In other words, using the base hulls instead of regular ships won't give you the edge to win any game. Late game, with PP overflow, expansion to new, uncolonized, multi-planet systems can be done faster by sending a fleet of as many outpost/colony ships as required, and the only thing that stops a player from doing it that way is the sense of PP inefficiency (that can be balanced anyways by the fact that doing it that way is overall faster than settling one planet and then waiting 3 turns to outposts the others from that first planet.

In the end, the only real advantage of base hulls regarding in-system expansion is the case where planets become inhabitable time after the system had some other inhabitable planet colonized, if and only if the empire didn't build a shipyard in that first planet, because the empire can build the colony/outpost bases without needing a shipyard in there. However, shipyards are cheap and relatively fast to finish, so again not using base hulls is not gamechanging. One could argue that by no using base hulls here we would be encouraging shipyard spam, but then the problem is that of a building that is necessary for many things (including drydocks for repairs), and so it is the mechanics regarding shipyards in general what should be addressed to fix the shipyard spamming (and drydock spamming) problem.

In previous FreeOrion versions, it was also useful as a cheap immobile ship (comsats) capable of stopping passing-by enemy ships to make them fight the planetary defenses in the system. That is no longer possible (ships won't be stopped except by armed ships capable of enforcing system blockades). Comsats were also great as inexpensive immobile chaff, but that was fixed by increasing cost of base hulls, so that now they are competitive with other small, cheap mobile hulls, and certainly not that cheap compared to mobile ships in general (plus there is the new Arc Disruptor that is quite effective at 1-shoting them from first bout of combat.

The only real chaff advantage that Comsats have compared to other cheap hulls is that they do not require a shipyard (again the same reason as with colonization mechanics, the shipyard) and so they can be pumped out right after a colony is conquered. That can be seen as good for gameplay, arguably, but I disagree: the conquering party is already expected to be the one with the upper hand, so allowing it to quickly reinforce its presence in the system with hollow hulls for chaff might be seen as unfair, or even nonsensical for what is worth regarding targetting mechanics, and is not necessary for gameplay.

Hence, I propose (I'm not the first one, e.g. Vezzra has been suggesting it for years now) to remove the base hull.

Benefits:
- A single way to colonise or outpost a planet for either in-system and inter-stellar expansion. That's simpler for new players (confirmed by recent experiences in multiplayer).
- Less cluttered list of available items to build.

Less clear or subjective benefits:
- Easier chaff balance (as can be seen in previous forum debates about chaff).

Drawbacks:
- Need shipyards on every multiplanet system or send ships from nearby systems (as well as the first colony/outpost ship, so only a source of extra work for the player, regarding "find nearest shipyard, build a ship there, send it here").


The spam shipyard problem could be solved by removing shipyards from the game. Rest of shipyard upgrades already take relatively long times to build, but if the faster times to get (e.g.) an Orbital Drydock or Orbital Incubator on a new planet are seen as a balance problem, all shipyard upgrades build times could be upped accordingly.
The only issue with this would be that the starting, basic hulls could be produced right away on every new colony. Is this really an issue? They are slow, have bad stats and are difficult to hide (stealth could be reduced to make it just impossible to hide). For further alleviation of this possible issue, ships could not be build in planets with happiness<5 (or <10, whatever we find good for balance).


Related threads:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=11625


Another alternative:
swaq wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:24 pm Although I voted for the last option here I think it is not possible to get rid of the colony base hull without either making a new colony base hull in disguise (cheap, low speed, low structure) or making early colonization significantly more expensive. If the colony base hull kludge is to be removed from the game I think it should be replaced by a new mechanic for in-system colonization. For example, a cheap building that when complete brings up the Colonize/Place Outpost option on planets in the same system.

As far as shipyards go I'm fine with removing them as long as something like the happiness requirement is added (makes sense for a population to refuse to build new ships when they refuse to repair ones) and the build time for the various shipyard upgrade buildings are reconsidered. Though I think this can be considered as a separate issue from the removal of the base colony hull.

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

I find multiple alternatives acceptable.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#3 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:28 pm I find multiple alternatives acceptable.
I made it 3 options possible. Decissions, decissions!

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#4 Post by Oberlus »

The poll options I put are not necessarilly the only ones. Feel free to suggest new ones or amendments for the ones already present.

And debate anything you want in this thread.

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

We could have something like a shipyard which allows to speed up building ships.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#6 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:00 pm We could have something like a shipyard which allows to speed up building ships.
If that is to be in place of current shipyard, as the prerequisite for shipyard upgrades, it would be like not removing shipyards and decrease build times of all ships.
If it is sth else I think it's off-topic.

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#7 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:25 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:00 pm We could have something like a shipyard which allows to speed up building ships.
If that is to be in place of current shipyard, as the prerequisite for shipyard upgrades, it would be like not removing shipyards and decrease build times of all ships.
If it is sth else I think it's off-topic.
It is inter-related. This builds on the idea that you do not need shipyards to build ships.
I was looking for the i-get-something-if-invest-something like it is currently with shipyards (you need to spend PP, else you could just spam it everywhere). And for a way to nerf investment-less ship building.

And it is related to stealth. If you see that there is a moon on a planet there may be something hidden. If you see that there is no shipyard currently you know there are no military ships hidden there in the production queue.

One way to nerf would be to e.g. double ship build times (or add e.g. flat two turns) if you do not have a speed-up-ship-building building.

And it is orthogonal in the sense that we could add such a building without removing current content.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#8 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:53 am And it is orthogonal in the sense that we could add such a building without removing current content.
That's why I say it's off-topic. New thread for it, please, since it does not influence the removal (or not) of basic shipyards.

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:00 am
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:53 am And it is orthogonal in the sense that we could add such a building without removing current content.
That's why I say it's off-topic. New thread for it, please, since it does not influence the removal (or not) of basic shipyards.
I included that line because of "it's off-topic", so you can see that I read your post and have thought about it. I wrote more in that post than that line.

So I write it up as a problem without possible solution:

Is it OK that you/your enemy can have military ships lying in wait anywhere? If one is forced to that playing style it leads to everybody spamming their production queue.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#10 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:08 am I included that line because of "it's off-topic", so you can see that I read your post and have thought about it. I wrote more in that post than that line.
I read all posts :lol:
Is it OK that you/your enemy can have military ships lying in wait anywhere? If one is forced to that playing style it leads to everybody spamming their production queue.
I'm not sure I follow you. If my enemies are going to build on every one of his colonies (or in few of them, I don't care) basic ships (small, medium and large basic hulls), which are slow, have low structure and slots for the cost, and limited stealth, they have my green light. Any of those two strategies, the choosing of the worst possible hulls and the spreading of their forces over multiple planets, are bad ideas.
Anyways, if someone finds that it is bad for balancing, e.g. that it gives OP advantage to blitzkrieg empires, we can adjust stats of basic hulls. For example, stealth -5, -15 and -15 so that they can seldom be concealed; structure 2, 3 and 5 so that they are bad chaff against Arc Disruptors; speed 60, 50 and 40; fuel efficiency average, bad and bad, as well as reduced starting fuel.

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#11 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:03 am If my enemies are going to build on every one of his colonies (or in few of them, I don't care) basic ships (small, medium and large basic hulls), which are slow, have low structure and slots for the cost, and limited stealth
One point is, even the worst military ship is enough to blockade for sure.

Another point is hidden extra military power to tip the balance in battle (like done with comsats before).

These are not so big issues because in many cases you will have a chance to respond. Still this changes the way intrusion works and i doubt people have thought about it. If nobody thinks that is an issue that is ok as well.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#12 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:52 pm One point is, even the worst military ship is enough to blockade for sure.
Enemies can do that if they build shipyards everywhere, that take 5 turns to complete. And they can build shipyards everywhere, they are cheap (and making them more expensive is not solution since that only works out for a while, until PP output keeps growing). The option of requiring happines>5 (or 7, or 10) allows for the same timings (or slower) without the need of spamming the shipyards or messing with shipyard cost balancing or upkeep.
Another point is hidden extra military power to tip the balance in battle (like done with comsats before).
Hidden how?
Once one assumes that people can build crappy ships in any planet, they can expect that. And, as you said, "like done with comsats before", but really not before, also presently. So again, the changes proposed in the OP allows for same mechanics we already have but without the extra clicks for spamming shipyards and without the not very KISS differentiation between colony base hull and rest of hulls.
this changes the way intrusion works
As per above, I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#13 Post by Magnate »

I'm completely supportive of removing the colony base hull, whatever else happens. I think it is confusing for new players, and as Vezzra said elsewhere, always creates more problems than it solves. As Oberlus outlines, I don't think removing it has any noticeable impact on colonisation or expansion, except in the one case where you conquer a system quite a long way from your front line - it will then take longer to colonise any unowned planets if you didn't bring outpost ships. But this is no different from needing to bring troop ships to take owned planets, so is an ok change.

As for removing shipyards and rebalancing building ships, I'm a bit more ambivalent. I'm quite happy with the logic that the three basic hulls can be built on-planet. I'm also quite happy that they can't be built until happiness is 5+, which is in keeping with the new production/research start. This means that the speed and cost of building outpost/colony ships in the newly conquered system is about the same as now, before either of these changes (actually no, because happiness starts at 0 after conquest, I mean it's about the same for newly colonised systems, and slower for conquered systems). I agree with Ophiuchus that this could mean people keep lots of basic hull ships one turn from built in their production queue as a "surprise" to invaders. I agree with Oberlus that this isn't a problem. If people want to do that, it's ok.

But I'm also ok with not removing shipyards. This would mean that the case described in my first paragraph persists, which is ok. But there are KISS arguments for not having hulls that can be built on-planet. My suggestion would be that if we keep shipyards, we reduce them to two turns to build (though the happiness thing would still take longer anyway).

I'm not going to mention drydocks because that should be a different thread about repair, not about colony base hulls.

HTH.

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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#14 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:14 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:52 pm ]this changes the way intrusion works
As per above, I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
Intrusion is about the same as against an empire which builds shipyards everywhere.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game

#15 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:31 pm
Oberlus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:14 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:52 pm ]this changes the way intrusion works
As per above, I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
Intrusion is about the same as against an empire which builds shipyards everywhere.
Agree.
The point of the OP's proposal is not to change gameplay but to keep it as it is with less clicks and simpler explanations.

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