Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
Moderator: Oberlus
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
It is currently impossible to build on non-owned planets. To prevent build-races IMHO only the empire supplying the system should be able to build such a project.
There is somewhere a forum discussion about this (i think in the timeframe when we devised the imperial stockpile). TBH I did not have yet time to read the complete posts.
There is somewhere a forum discussion about this (i think in the timeframe when we devised the imperial stockpile). TBH I did not have yet time to read the complete posts.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
No need for that. The build is performed in an owned planet in the same system, as the replacement for building outpost bases and colony bases. That building, upon completion, would bring up the colonize (or outpost) button on the unowned planets of the same system.
Agree.To prevent build-races IMHO only the empire supplying the system should be able to build such a project.
I read it once but can't find it...There is somewhere a forum discussion about this
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
also could not find it but i found the original discussion for introducing colony buildings where many of those points are touched: Streamlined ColonizationOberlus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:00 amNo need for that. The build is performed in an owned planet in the same system, as the replacement for building outpost bases and colony bases. That building, upon completion, would bring up the colonize (or outpost) button on the unowned planets of the same system.
Agree.To prevent build-races IMHO only the empire supplying the system should be able to build such a project.
I read it once but can't find it...There is somewhere a forum discussion about this
I tried out outposting on unowned planets on 25 Apr 2018 in
FarOutposting. And now I found the forum thread Is it possible to build something on planets you dont own. And it seems you were fighting this very much then
In either case none of this is solvable in FOCS right now. One would need to the ability to do projects on unowned planets (which I think is intended to happen for influence) and for the other one needs extended button actions (scriptable buttons with effects would be great).
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
I don't know if there is some misunderstanding here, but I'll try to make it clearer:Ophiuchus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:00 pm I tried out outposting on unowned planets on 25 Apr 2018 in
FarOutposting. And now I found the forum thread Is it possible to build something on planets you dont own. And it seems you were fighting this very much then
We are NOT talking about constructing buildings in unowned planets.
That is: instead of building an outpost base in your owned planet X, which upon completion brings up the "Outpost" button on unowned planets of that system, we build a colonisation project in that owned planet X, which upon completion brings in that same "Outpost" button on unowned planets of that system.
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
Not on my side. Forget I ever mentioned buildings if that is confusing.
You are talking about establishing outposts on unowned planets specifically on planets in systems where you already have outposts/colonies.
Personally I would find it better if that feature would be just a subcase for outposting on unowned planets in your whole supply.
If one wanted outposting to take more than one turn if it is away forbidding that is of course a sidestepping solution.
You suggest targeting after finishing a project. I find this inferior UI-wise (two-step) to targeting when starting the project directly on the target (one-step). After build targeting solves some of the timing/overlap issues though as you make the outposting a single turn process. It is on the same level UI-wise as using base hulls right now.
In either case none of this is solvable in FOCS right now. One would need to the ability to do projects on unowned planets (which I think is intended to happen for influence) and for the other one needs extended button actions (scriptable buttons with effects would be great).
I would like to have both abilities in freeorion. But for the current discussion - it seems you are exactly modeling outpost base behavior using another mechanic - what is the actual benefit?
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
There is no way in FOCS to directly connect a building to a colonize button on another planet.Oberlus wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:03 amAs long as system is blockaded by enemies, the outpost/colonize button should be disabled and the unused buildings would stay.
[...]
When having colony/outpost ships and outposting/colonizing projects ready to use in the same system, the colonize/outpost buttons should refer to the outposting/colonizing projects, and only when these are exhausted should the backend pick ships for the rest of targets.
It should be possible to script a building that doesn't fire an effect if there is a particular building owned by another empire in the same system.Concurrent projects from different empires should be allowed, but they should fail when targeting the same planet at the same time.
CorrectAFAIK, there is no way to select one finished building on a colony...
Not the GUI stuff.Is all this doable in FOCS?
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
All of options 1, 3, and 4 are ok for me. I would like to have some specific ship-less outposting/colonisation option, but that is a big topic in itself which strays from the OP topics.
I find shipyard removal + happiness guard a nice option.
The basic workflow would change to set focus on colonization/invasion and then when happiness five is reached, you build and/or change focus.
Of course for great environment after colonisation you can start building immediately, which is ok.
I guess we should reduce outpost part build time to one turn.
I find shipyard removal + happiness guard a nice option.
The basic workflow would change to set focus on colonization/invasion and then when happiness five is reached, you build and/or change focus.
Of course for great environment after colonisation you can start building immediately, which is ok.
I guess we should reduce outpost part build time to one turn.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
Regarding strong emotions against a 0-fuel, 0-starlane-speed hull: I don't have strong emotions against it, it just is pointless and bad design in my eyes. It does not fit well with how ships are designed to work in FO, more like a hack that someone has bolted on to make some things supposedly easier, but actually introducing something that causes more troubles and issues than it solves.
As far as I can see, practically all issues that might arise with the removal of the Base Hull can and should be addressed by other means than keeping the hull. The only one that might be really an issue is the colonization thing, which can be solved either by allowing for alternative in-system colonization solutions, or by simply providing a UI element that lets the player automate the process of queuing an outpost ship at the nearest shipyard, move it to the system and perform the outpost creation.
Regarding the idea of removing shipyards as mandatory requirement to build any type of hull: While that isn't completely out of question, it is a fundamental deviation from the original design of how shipyards are supposed to work (a deviation we already have to a degree because there currenrly are hulls you can build without a shipyard present, and because shipyards are way too cheap to build).
The original design was, or better still is, that shipyards are supposed to be a very important, rare, valuable strategic asset. Building up a shipyard site should be a major investment, players should have to choose the locations where they want to put their shipyards very carefully, because spamming them should not be possible. Because of their importance (as the only locations where you can build ships which are crucially essential for the operation of your empire) they need to be well protected and defensible.
Which presents the player with important, meaningful choices: Build your shipyards far from your borders means they are well protected, but it takes longer to get your ships to the locations they need to be (especially during war). Building them close to your borders will make them more vulnerable, but you can (potentially) produce your ships closer to where you need them to be. Unless the shipyard is close to the wrong border, and you need those ships at the other end of your empire. So a more central placement is important too.
Depending on the actual situation, there are probably several factors that will determine where the best locations for your shipyards will be, also depending on your playstyle (cautious/defensive, or more aggressive/risky).
How that can be achieved is another question. But removing the requirement of a shipyard even only for some hulls will weaken the importance of shipyard/shipyard placment with regard to the design goals outlined above.
As far as I can see, practically all issues that might arise with the removal of the Base Hull can and should be addressed by other means than keeping the hull. The only one that might be really an issue is the colonization thing, which can be solved either by allowing for alternative in-system colonization solutions, or by simply providing a UI element that lets the player automate the process of queuing an outpost ship at the nearest shipyard, move it to the system and perform the outpost creation.
Regarding the idea of removing shipyards as mandatory requirement to build any type of hull: While that isn't completely out of question, it is a fundamental deviation from the original design of how shipyards are supposed to work (a deviation we already have to a degree because there currenrly are hulls you can build without a shipyard present, and because shipyards are way too cheap to build).
The original design was, or better still is, that shipyards are supposed to be a very important, rare, valuable strategic asset. Building up a shipyard site should be a major investment, players should have to choose the locations where they want to put their shipyards very carefully, because spamming them should not be possible. Because of their importance (as the only locations where you can build ships which are crucially essential for the operation of your empire) they need to be well protected and defensible.
Which presents the player with important, meaningful choices: Build your shipyards far from your borders means they are well protected, but it takes longer to get your ships to the locations they need to be (especially during war). Building them close to your borders will make them more vulnerable, but you can (potentially) produce your ships closer to where you need them to be. Unless the shipyard is close to the wrong border, and you need those ships at the other end of your empire. So a more central placement is important too.
Depending on the actual situation, there are probably several factors that will determine where the best locations for your shipyards will be, also depending on your playstyle (cautious/defensive, or more aggressive/risky).
How that can be achieved is another question. But removing the requirement of a shipyard even only for some hulls will weaken the importance of shipyard/shipyard placment with regard to the design goals outlined above.
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
Vezzra, I agree with all you said except with this part I quote here.
Shipyards, the very specific building (not the concept that covers all possible shipyard upgrades) is a very unvaluable (as a weak synonym of useless-slash-annoying) building in FreeOrion, only necessary because it is scripted to be the prerequisite for all actually interesting shipyards that the game has: orbital drydock (for robotic hulls), orbital incubator (for organic hulls), energy compressor (for energy hulls) and asteroid processing thingy (for asteroid hulls). No body builds basic hulls if they already have the techs for better hulls. Acknowledging and accepting this reality made me think that we could let the "actually used" shipyards to imply the basic shipyard, so that we can save us from those extra clicks to enqueue the prerequisite. Doing this we wouldn't be eliminating the strategic importance of building shipyards (actually useful shipyards). And also that would mean that we could build colony and outpost ships without needing to search for the closest strategically important shipyard (which, as commented by you on the other thread, was a PITA).
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
So lets increase the cost of building a shipyard site and keep it as a prereq for all that shipyard upgrades. Lets up the PP cost as well add an influence cost to it.Vezzra wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 3:32 pm Regarding the idea of removing shipyards as mandatory requirement to build any type of hull: While that isn't completely out of question, it is a fundamental deviation from the original design of how shipyards are supposed to work (a deviation we already have to a degree because there currenrly are hulls you can build without a shipyard present, and because shipyards are way too cheap to build).
And make it possible to build hulls which are really bad for military purposes everywhere without a shipyard in order the other basic stuff is possible. The starting hulls are all shitty enough i think.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
This I like. I think it's a step in the right direction. Although I don't know that it will be enough to force them into strategic use. One idea I've brought up before is having buildings cost infrastructure, and I think that having shipyards and their upgrades cost infrastructure might be a way to make that even more of a strategic choice.
That makes the shipyard into a building that doesn't actually do anything, which is something I don't like. I also think that it's missing the point of shipyards being strategic locations if ships can just be built anywhere. The point of production should be strategic, not ubiquitous. Even for the "shitty" ships.And make it possible to build hulls which are really bad for military purposes everywhere without a shipyard in order the other basic stuff is possible. The starting hulls are all shitty enough i think.
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Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
Increasing the PP construction cost will not work, since that always hits the same wall: either it is too expensive early game or too cheap late game. You always reach that point when PP output is enough to consider inexpensive what was expensive.labgnome wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 4:26 amThis I like. I think it's a step in the right direction. Although I don't know that it will be enough to force them into strategic use. One idea I've brought up before is having buildings cost infrastructure, and I think that having shipyards and their upgrades cost infrastructure might be a way to make that even more of a strategic choice.
Requiring infrastructure won't work either, because if you can build the shipyard facilities in a planet, then you can do it also in the rest of planets since they all have the roughly the same target infrastructure.
Adding influence UPKEEP (not a one-time cost to pay at construction, but an actual upkeep to pay every turn) will work.
Also an influence one-time cost to discourage dismantling and rebuilding the shipyard complex when you need it somewhere else. However, that means certain level of micromanagement, and more important it is a PITA for distributed empires that would like to be able to produce ships in several distant, disconnected supply groups.
The shipyard is actually a building that doesn't do anything, since no body uses it past turn 20-25. At start you use your HW shipyard, later you can already build drydocks, incubators ot what not in HW and other systems, and that happens roughly when you can/need start building ships in systems other than your HW.labgnome wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 4:26 amThat makes the shipyard into a building that doesn't actually do anything, which is something I don't like. I also think that it's missing the point of shipyards being strategic locations if ships can just be built anywhere. The point of production should be strategic, not ubiquitous. Even for the "shitty" ships.And make it possible to build hulls which are really bad for military purposes everywhere without a shipyard in order the other basic stuff is possible. The starting hulls are all shitty enough i think.
Also, the shitty ships are not used except during those first 20-30 turns or when building cheap colony/outpost ships for conolization.
There is a contradiction here: want we have to keep basic shipyards as strategic places and be forced to micromanage outposting of new planets or not?
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
I was not thinking these things as an alternative to influence cost, but in addition to influence cost. Make the building of shipyards as strategic as possible.Oberlus wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 8:01 amIncreasing the PP construction cost will not work, since that always hits the same wall: either it is too expensive early game or too cheap late game. You always reach that point when PP output is enough to consider inexpensive what was expensive.
Requiring infrastructure won't work either, because if you can build the shipyard facilities in a planet, then you can do it also in the rest of planets since they all have the roughly the same target infrastructure.
I think that was the idea, or at least what I understood of it.Adding influence UPKEEP (not a one-time cost to pay at construction, but an actual upkeep to pay every turn) will work.
So long as we are building multiple shipyards there is going to be some level of micromanagement involved, also anything that limits shipyards as going to present difficulties for a distributed empire that wants to produce ships in each of it's supply groups. Something that might ameliorate this issue for distributed empires would be to have the upkeep be per supply group, so that early on when they are disconnected they can more easily build multiple shipyards.Also an influence one-time cost to discourage dismantling and rebuilding the shipyard complex when you need it somewhere else. However, that means certain level of micromanagement, and more important it is a PITA for distributed empires that would like to be able to produce ships in several distant, disconnected supply groups.
I think that there is a difference between becoming irrelevant and not doing anything. I also know that I play rather differently and am using the base hulls even later in the game than that, but I like to play with lower AI aggression, bigger galaxy, and focus on research and growth, and usually shoot for the asteroid hull line. So I might not be rid of basic hulls for at least another 10 or more turns.The shipyard is actually a building that doesn't do anything, since no body uses it past turn 20-25. At start you use your HW shipyard, later you can already build drydocks, incubators ot what not in HW and other systems, and that happens roughly when you can/need start building ships in systems other than your HW.
Also, the shitty ships are not used except during those first 20-30 turns or when building cheap colony/outpost ships for conolization.
I'm not sure I understand your phrasing here, can you re-phrase the question so it's more clear?There is a contradiction here: want we have to keep basic shipyards as strategic places and be forced to micromanage outposting of new planets or not?
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
Now that me and Oberlus played a game with more reasonably priced hulls, I would go as far as suggest that another hull is added with speed 50-60 and only one internal slot. This would make early-game colonisation go faster. Perhaps even rename base hull, remove 2 internal slots and make it cost 5-10PP.
Re: Remove base hulls and shipyards from game
Not really. I think the idea you are referring to is to make shipyards strategic (in the sense that they need commitment). It is enough to do that for military ships.
Outposting/colonisation could still be done with a hull which does not need a shipyard as prereq (small to large hulls).
The game function if still keeping the shipyard building would be to impose a base cost so having multiple shipyard lines would be cost effective - the other alternative would be to have the other shipyard lines have a significant base cost.
Adding influence upkeep restricts scaling (number of current shipyards). Adding a one-time influence cost asks for a commitment to a planet.
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