New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

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Oberlus
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New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#1 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:06 pmOne interesting map-interacting trait could be of ship speed upgrades. Having ships for covering a larger part of border, or outrunning same-tech enemies, or faster close-to-supply exploration, or faster to deploy ships from your shipyards. Would be nice for species which can build ships but can not colonize elsewhere (e.g. acirema).
Could be categorized as exploration/logistics - also interacting with combat (vs pilot,fuel,armour,shields) and invasion (vs troops,fuel,armour).
Indeed. It could work with +10 speed per trait level, so a bad speed species would have asteroid speed 50 and energy hull speed 110, and a great speed species would be 80 and 140 respectively. This means the effect is much stronger on the slower hulls so bad species would have an incentive to go for organic/energy hulls and good species could find interesting to go for asteroids and robos.
Alternatively, it could be based on a percentage of the hull's base speed: 20%, so:
Base speed Inc. per level
60 +12
75 +15
80 +16
90 +18
100 +20
120 +24

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LienRag
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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#2 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:40 pm Indeed. It could work with +10 speed per trait level, so a bad speed species would have asteroid speed 50 and energy hull speed 110, and a great speed species would be 80 and 140 respectively. This means the effect is much stronger on the slower hulls so bad species would have an incentive to go for organic/energy hulls and good species could find interesting to go for asteroids and robos.
I like this one better, but that may be my lack of experience talking.

I'm also partial to bonus for one Ship Hull only (obviously not a no-brainer one like the Self-Graviting Hull), which would make standard fleet composition not possible as each specie would have a different optimum.

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#3 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 5:04 pm I'm also partial to bonus for one Ship Hull only (obviously not a no-brainer one like the Self-Graviting Hull), which would make standard fleet composition not possible as each specie would have a different optimum.
What? A bonus for a specific ship hull? So many different traits each one for a different ship hull?
I'm totally against that.

Keep things general, allow freedom of choice to the players, variety of strategies. E.g., do not make species (traits) that constraint the hull line they should research to one.

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#4 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 5:37 pm E.g., do not make species (traits) that constraint the hull line they should research to one.
You're right, I didn't take into account that the player would be mostly stuck on that Hull line after that since researching multiple hull lines on a small to medium Galaxy is penalizing.

What I intended to generate is some invitation to reap more from some parts of the game, not driving the player's strategy.

I still think that it would be a good idea for Natives, though. If one plays this Hull line he will tend to try to acquire these Natives, either he'll spare himself the effort.

Is there a way to have some Species traits appear only when they're Natives, not when there are the starting specie (like a "keeping true to tradition" thing that one would lose when too ambitious) ?

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#5 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:50 pm What I intended to generate is some invitation to reap more from some parts of the game, not driving the player's strategy.
Each part of the game research tree should have interest on its own, without that being (much) influenced by the species traits.
LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:50 pm I still think that it would be a good idea for Natives, though. If one plays this Hull line he will tend to try to acquire these Natives, either he'll spare himself the effort.
Players will often get any natives they can, even if they are "bad" (ultimately, you can remove them from the planet, but usually they are good powerhouses of PP/RP).
LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:50 pm Is there a way to have some Species traits appear only when they're Natives, not when there are the starting specie (like a "keeping true to tradition" thing that one would lose when too ambitious) ?
Species traits do not "appear", they are not random, they are set, and (hopefully) carefully balanced.

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#6 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:03 pm
LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:50 pm What I intended to generate is some invitation to reap more from some parts of the game, not driving the player's strategy.
Each part of the game research tree should have interest on its own, without that being (much) influenced by the species traits.
What I meant is that if one has a bonus for, let's say, Protoplasmic Hulls, he'll be incited to make the most of the game stage where Protoplasmic Hulls are relevant, making for a more varied game experience.
Oberlus wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:03 pm Players will often get any natives they can, even if they are "bad" (ultimately, you can remove them from the planet, but usually they are good powerhouses of PP/RP).
Aren't you working on precisely correcting that with Influence and Species values ?

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:03 pm
LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:50 pm Is there a way to have some Species traits appear only when they're Natives, not when there are the starting specie (like a "keeping true to tradition" thing that one would lose when too ambitious) ?
Species traits do not "appear", they are not random, they are set, and (hopefully) carefully balanced.
I mean having two sets, one for when they appear as playable species, and one when they're Natives ?

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#7 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 8:29 pm
Oberlus wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:03 pm Each part of the game research tree should have interest on its own, without that being (much) influenced by the species traits.
What I meant is that if one has a bonus for, let's say, Protoplasmic Hulls, he'll be incited to make the most of the game stage where Protoplasmic Hulls are relevant, making for a more varied game experience.
What you say is obvious in what it means and implies. And I can just repeat myself.

Oberlus wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:03 pm Players will often get any natives they can, even if they are "bad" (ultimately, you can remove them from the planet, but usually they are good powerhouses of PP/RP).
Aren't you working on precisely correcting that with Influence and Species values ?
There is nothing to correct in there, conquering natives is not a problem. It just need to be balanced: so much benefit for the conquer, so much cost to get it done.
What I meant is that you don't need to add fancy and implicitly broken species traits to encourage the conquering of natives.
Oberlus wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 7:03 pm Species traits do not "appear", they are not random, they are set, and (hopefully) carefully balanced.
I mean having two sets, one for when they appear as playable species, and one when they're Natives ?
Even if you mean species traits only for natives, they don't "appear", you put them on purpose on each species in their FOCS definition files.

Are you trolling me?

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#8 Post by LienRag »

Will that do ?

speed.macros

Code: Select all

BAD_ENGINE
'''[[ENGINE_EFFECTSGROUP(BAD,Value - 10)]]
'''

AVERAGE_ENGINE
'''
'''

GOOD_ENGINE
'''[[ENGINE_EFFECTSGROUP(GOOD,Value + 10)]]
'''

GREAT_ENGINE
'''[[ENGINE_EFFECTSGROUP(GREAT,Value + 20)]]
'''

ULTIMATE_ENGINE
'''[[ENGINE_EFFECTSGROUP(ULTIMATE,Value + 30)]]
'''


ENGINE_EFFECTSGROUP
'''     EffectsGroup
            description = "@1@_ENGINE_DESC"
            scope = And [
                Source
                Ship
		Speed low = 1 // Immobile objects do not get the starlane speed boost.
            ]
            accountinglabel = "@1@_ENGINE_LABEL"
            priority = [[TARGET_AFTER_SCALING_PRIORITY]]
            effects = SetMaxSpeed value = @2@
'''


#include "/scripting/common/priorities.macros"
#include "/scripting/common/misc.macros"

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#9 Post by Ophiuchus »

LienRag wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 6:50 pm Is there a way to have some Species traits appear only when they're Natives, not when there are the starting specie (like a "keeping true to tradition" thing that one would lose when too ambitious) ?
The "traits" can only apply on species. There is no distinction between natives or not there. You cant have different variations of the same species.

That said - you could copy a species, choose a different species id (and description) and use one only for empires and one only for natives - but this sucks, it means two listings instead of one in many places (e.g. colony buildings).

Also you can add an effect to a species and activate it only on native homeworlds. This would add to native homeworlds being strategic ressources, but I find it rather cumbersome. It could be interesting if it enhances the storytelling though - the natives being a more primitive form of the empire species. The empire species overcame some trait their ancestors had and that gave them the ability to build an empire - but they maybe lost a feral useful trait in the process (e.g. the natives have really bad influence but are better warriors)

I think we do not track the planet/system where a ship was build, so one can not base an effect on where it comes from (which might be interesting?). One way to simulate that now: some kind of ship part which is only buildable on the native homeworld.
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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#10 Post by Oberlus »

The thing is we have palayable species that never appear as natives, and native species that never start empires (can't be chosen at start, can appear when setting empire species as random), so there is no point on having a species trait that depends on the species being playable or native. All species, playable or not, are designed on purpose, and I can't see any need to have species traits that vary depending on the species being native or playable.

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#11 Post by Oberlus »

Coming back to the subject of this thread, a species trait about ship speed.

I prefer the trait based on a percentage, because otherwise it loses significance as the game advances (+10 speed to a robotic hull with +40 speed engines and the +20 speed from policy gets from 140 to 150, +7.5%, quite useless, and it becomes worse with organic and energy hulls) and I don't like that, it makes the trait only interesting for astertoid hulls, and not by much (still much better to add engines).

Maybe make it
Bad -15%
Good +15%
Great +30%
Ultimate +45%
Base speed 15% per level
60 +/-9
75 +/-11.25
80 +/-12
90 +/-13.5
100 +/-15
120 +/-18

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#12 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:34 pm I prefer the trait based on a percentage, because otherwise it loses significance as the game advances (+10 speed to a robotic hull with +40 speed engines and the +20 speed from policy gets from 140 to 150, +7.5%, quite useless, and it becomes worse with organic and energy hulls)
140 to 150 can be the difference between a surprise attack and giving the enemy time to flee, so it's not necessarily useless.
I'm not sure that a trait relatively losing significance as the game advance is a big problem, but again I'm not the most experienced player.
Laenfa stealth gets completely useless once Omni-Scanner is researched, and we still have it in the game.

Also the problem with a percentage is that it would instead gain significance as the game advances, and I'm not sure that it would be a good thing either.



Oberlus wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:34 pm I don't like that, it makes the trait only interesting for astertoid hulls, and not by much (still much better to add engines).
It makes it more interesting for Asteroid Hulls, which is not necessarily a problem. If that means driving the player's strategy towards Asteroid Hulls, then yes it becomes a problem.
And I don't have enough experience do distinguish between the two.



Oberlus wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:34 pm (still much better to add engines).
I completely don't understand your point there, no one chooses between a Species trait and adding engines ? Adding engines do not remove the Species trait.
Maybe you mean stacking ? Imho Species traits and engines certainly would stack, it doesn't make much sense for them not to.


Oberlus wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:34 pm I prefer the trait based on a percentage
(...)
Maybe make it
Bad -15%
Good +15%
Great +30%
Ultimate +45%
That's certainly an option¹, I wrote above why I'm not entirely satisfied by it.
Also it would make for fractional speed, I'm not sure if we want that.

I see two ways out of this dilemma (if fractional speed is not a problem) : either make it two different traits or combine flat bonus and percentage (like +5 flat +5% per step).

¹ though your percentages are too extreme imho and steps of 10 % should be the more we ought to do

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#13 Post by Oberlus »

I don't have figures for typical starlanes length range, but +/-10 is not much compared to what they can measure as per my experience. I've been several times in the situation in which I needed +30 or +50 speed to turn a 2-turn flight into a 1-turn flight. Times when a +10 was relevant for that purpose have been much infrequent.
Think about it this way: engines give +20, +40, etc. (actually, +40 is relatively easy to achieve). The policies and buildings that gives extra speed do +20 and +30.
+10 isjust too small compared to everything.
Maybe I'm wrong and I find it quite useful. I just doubt it.
So good speed would have an impact only early game, before engines or faster hulls, but later on no one will prefer a good speed species over a good weapons species. Probably no one will prefer a great speed species over a good weapons species. And that would be bad, another no-brainer.
+20 per level is too much early game and not that good late game.

Planetary stealth is something else, also in the list of things to improve so that late game isn't useless. But anyway, planetary stealth gives you much more than ship speed, early game, so the comparison is bad at all levels.

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#14 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:09 pm So good speed would have an impact only early game, before engines or faster hulls, but later on no one will prefer a good speed species over a good weapons species. Probably no one will prefer a great speed species over a good weapons species. And that would be bad, another no-brainer.
Oh, you meant choosing between species. Yes, you are right (quite). Usually very good weapons species are indeed no-brainers.
I had a game where I had no good weapon ones and had to mix my fleet between good shields, good fuel and good something (don't remember what) and it was much more interesting than the usual fleets of Mu Urshes.

You're not entirely right though as some fast ships (engines + species traits) would find their use even in a dominantly Misioria fleet, as raiders, jägers, or other tasks, which will anyway improve diversity of strategies.

But indeed, I confess that I had not thought about that.
I'm not sure that balancing a no-brainer by another OP trait is a good game design principle ?

Also, removing the no-brainer part of very good/great pilots is something that has been brainstormed for a while already (and diversifying ship traits is helping this objective imho) so we may hope to find a solution to it one day or another.

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Re: New species trait: Engines (ship speed)

#15 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:35 pm I'm not sure that balancing a no-brainer by another OP trait is a good game design principle ?
Not sure? Is there a situation in which you would find that a good game design principle? Wow.
Luckily, weapons is not an OP trait, it is balanced with other species traits. We just need to not make a useless/flavour trait.

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