New species trait: Shields

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Oberlus
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New species trait: Shields

#1 Post by Oberlus »

Apart from Pilots (weapons) trait, and the suggested Armour species trait, the other obvious option affecting combat is ship shields.

Acirema have +1 shields to their ships, regardless of mounting or not a shield in the ship. It's nice early game but irrelevant against plasma (or fighters).

I suggest a species trait that gives +20% (rounded up) strength to any mounted shield part in their ships, per level of the trait (if bad, rounded down). Final values for each shield depending on trait would be as follows:
Bad Avg. Good Great Ultim.
Defense grid 2 3 4 5 5
Deflector 4 5 6 7 8
Plasma 7 9 11 13 15
Multispectral 8 10 12 14 16
Black 12 15 18 21 24
Death ray 4 vs ultimate black shield would make 6 (20%) damage per shot if average pilots, 21 (47%) if ultimate pilots. There's no need to include any Ultimate species in the mix, though. Acirema could remain as they are, or change it for "Good Shields".

Doesn't seem an OP trait since shields can always be countered with bombers/fighters.


Do you like it?



Alternatively, the Shields trait could be about part cost, so that Good Shields reduce shield parts' cost by 33%, Great by 50%, Ultimate by 67%. But I like more the above version.

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The Silent One
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Re: New species trait: Shields

#2 Post by The Silent One »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:51 pmKobuntura (IIRC) have +1 shields to their ships, regardless of mounting or not a shield in the ship.
Acirema, I think. Other than that, sounds good - how would it interact with robotic shields, though?
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Re: New species trait: Shields

#3 Post by Oberlus »

The Silent One wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:44 pmhow would it interact with robotic shields, though?
Good question.
Maximum RIS strength is 20. Ultimate shields with that would be 32, arguably too powerful. Maybe it could be treated as a deflector (-1/+1/+2/+3), regardless of actual RIS strength. Like a plasma (-2,+2,+4,+6) seems too powerful, given that RIS costs 70 and plasma 90.

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:52 pm
The Silent One wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:44 pmhow would it interact with robotic shields, though?
Good question.
Maximum RIS strength is 20. Ultimate shields with that would be 32, arguably too powerful. Maybe it could be treated as a deflector (-1/+1/+2/+3), regardless of actual RIS strength. Like a plasma (-2,+2,+4,+6) seems too powerful, given that RIS costs 70 and plasma 90.
As robotic interface shield is based on the number of ships: How about treating it each step as counting 20% more than a regular ship? (So a great shield species would get the same benefit from having 10 ships for which an average species would need 14 ships).
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Re: New species trait: Shields

#5 Post by Oberlus »

I like that, Ophiuchus. So maximum RIS strength stays at 20, but good species get there sooner.

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#6 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:51 am I like that, Ophiuchus. So maximum RIS strength stays at 20, but good species get there sooner.
Just note that balancing wise this of course could be large nerf to the robotic shields comparatively to other shields with shield trait.

But having to choose between different combat-related traits it is definitly a win. Great shields plus Bad pilot species would be nice (hm.. Gysache maybe?).
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Re: New species trait: Shields

#7 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:57 amJust note that balancing wise this of course could be large nerf to the robotic shields comparatively to other shields with shield trait.
Maybe we can change the 20% value for the RIS, to make it more competitive if deemed necessary.
Nevertheless, RIS seems underused with current values, maybe it could use a rework of its strength formula. Actually, shields in general seems underused (since we have fighters), but I always see defense grid / deflector ships, seldom a plasma shield ship, in multiplayer games. Never a RIS. I guess having to pile up a few tens of ships to get the same effect that you would get with a single plasma shield part is discouraging.

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#8 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:35 amMaybe we can change the 20% value for the RIS, to make it more competitive if deemed necessary.
Nevertheless, RIS seems underused with current values, maybe it could use a rework of its strength formula. Actually, shields in general seems underused (since we have fighters), but I always see defense grid / deflector ships, seldom a plasma shield ship, in multiplayer games. Never a RIS. I guess having to pile up a few tens of ships to get the same effect that you would get with a single plasma shield part is discouraging.
The KISS hard targeting will be a nerf for fighters on the defense side, so expect more ships for soaking shots. Moving to four combat bouts will be another fighter nerf (if countered), expect more flak i guess. Adding the gamma slingshot will be a buff for shielded ships. I still think we should ~halve the cost of shields nonetheless. The robotic interface shields require a large investment, i think you are right that the extra bonus they provide is too easily countered since there are fighters.
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Re: New species trait: Shields

#9 Post by Oberlus »

Topic splitted into this one (with the last two posts edited to split them between topics), one for the general discussion, and one for the ship speed species trait.

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#10 Post by wobbly »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 4:15 pm
wobbly wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 11:08 am It's come up that good shields are probably a little weak. I'm not seeing Acirema as viable when I could have Etty or Mu-ursh. Could use a small buff? Also numbers are confusing, pedia is showing it unscaled.
What about this?
https://www.freeorion.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=99211
I'd be fine with something like Oberlus's suggestion. Or something in line with good pilots. +1 on defense grid, +2 on deflector, +3 plasma, +4 multispectral/black. Seems to me that puts it at ok but worse then good pilots? e.g. matches/slightly better (are shields the x8 structure multiplier? or the x6 weapon multiplier) with shield vs direct weapon (good shield vs good pilot), good pilot is better with fighters (ignore shield), and good pilot is obviously better against non-shielded.

Seems better then the current situation anyway.

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#11 Post by Oberlus »

I also like using the same system than with weapons: instead of a plain percentage, fixed values depending on the shield part used in the ship:
Bad Avg. Good Great Ultim.
Defense grid 2 3 4 5 6
Deflector 3 5 7 9 11
Plasma 6 9 12 15 18
Multispectral 7 10 13 16 20
Black 10 15 20 25 30
But a percentage is needed for the RIS parts, makes little sense to add a flat bonus.
Since RIS are not actual shields but more like dodging bullets, I think it is OK and even convenient for strategies that RIS are unaffected by the shields trait.
However, that allows great or good species using deflector or plasma shields to dwarf the bonus from RIS during most of the game. So I think it should be changed to allow higher maximum shield to not be dwarfed by great/ultimate plasma shields, or have cheaper cost...

PS:
Multiplier for ship shields and damage are x6.
Multiplier for structure and planet shields are x8.

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#12 Post by wobbly »

Ok proposal:

Good shields: Acrimea, Trith
Bad shields: Exobot, Replicon

Defense Grid: +/- 1 (x6)
Deflector: +/- 2
Plasma: +/- 3
MS: +/- 4
Black: +/- 5
RIS: unmodified

Edit: https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/3979

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#13 Post by Ophiuchus »

wobbly wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:35 am Good shields: Acrimea, Trith
Bad shields: Exobot, Replicon
fixed bonus like suggested: ok
Acirema, Exobot: +1
about the others dunno, having no great shields certainly eases balance vs RIS

I'd see if we can mix bad pilot with good shield species. With current content, I think shields only make sense with military ships, where pilot skill is always important. But it is not the other way round, so the trait can mostly be though of adapting the pilot trait.
Arc Disruptors are not effected by pilot trait and heavy bombers are almost not; so a bad pilot good shields species is as good as a great pilot good shields species for that. (Side note: Arc disruptors are intended to be efficient for bad pilot and average pilot species and need a buff (probably simply cheaper tech)).
Maaaaybe there it is somewhere a niche for damage soakers (cheap structure + a shield, no weapon), but i didnt do the math.
It is also possible that we introduce research ships which also might benefit from shields.


no effect on RIS is OK. I think we should not nerf RIS power for exobot. For adjusting RIS power, one could also add a trait to make the part cheaper/more expensive.
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Re: New species trait: Shields

#14 Post by wobbly »

Re Trith: Mostly they were the species most in need of a buff. There's also an argument here that it's not directly in competion with good pilots if someone wants to play pure Trith. They are xenophobes.

Edit: the main one I care about is Acirema. So others could be potentially shifted.

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Re: New species trait: Shields

#15 Post by Grummel7 »

Trith surely can take a little buff, but why bad shields for Replicon?
They are among the weaker species already, thanks to very bad influence. Just compare Replicon with George.

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