Reinforced Hull redesign

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Oberlus
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Reinforced Hull redesign

#1 Post by Oberlus » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:31 am

labgnome wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:07 pm
swaq wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:57 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:44 pm

It always bothered me that the effect of RH is so biased towards small hulls.
Maybe it should be a percentage improvement instead?
Maybe it should exclude the "comsat" hull?
Comsat hulls are better balanced now. Excluding them from RH is not what I would like, because it is nice to have some upgrade options for their chaff effect. So what about this:

Add a fixed +2 (maybe +3 or +4, numbers should be crunched) structure plus +20% (rounded down) of base hull structure (i.e. excluding armour).

A selfgrav would be getting +22 structure. A comsat +2 (base structure 3*0.2=0). A robotic hull +7 (+2 +25*0.2).

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Vezzra
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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#2 Post by Vezzra » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:38 pm

I want to second that idea.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#3 Post by Ophiuchus » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:39 pm

I always thought about this tech as a specific small-hulls-buff. If it is not I would not mind if we remove it completely.

Specifically the organic line would need some support I think. Maybe reinforced hull could work differently on different hull lines?
E.g. for organics +3 structure for each internal slot.

Also 20% i think is way too much for research cost.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#4 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:24 pm

And we forgot to mention one important reason why the base hull gets the +5 structure boost: you should be able to use the base hull even if your enemy uses mines.

If we change reinforced hull tech we either need to dump that idea, lower damage from mines for base hull, change the way mines work (e.g. just damaging ships down to structure 1), or add a way how to up the structure of a base hull (e.g. internal part with +3 structure for 6PP - we now have three internal slots so we could use up to two for armour).

The last one (expensive internal armour) would be probably prohibitive for troop pods but for outposts and colony ships it would suffice. For chaff one would probably prefer to buy a second comsat at the same price.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#5 Post by Oberlus » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:21 pm

Ophiuchus wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:39 pm
I always thought about this tech as a specific small-hulls-buff. If it is not I would not mind if we remove it completely.
...
Also 20% i think is way too much for research cost.
It is indeed better suited for smaller hulls, and close to useless for big hulls. I wouldn't like removing it.
But late game is mostly only useful for comsats. The extra +5 structure seldom accounts for an extra hit of any late-game ship design (including small ones). Hence the "need" for an effect more noticeable in small-but-not-tiny ships.
Also, the idea of a tech that upgrades the structure of all ships is appealing, the same way there are weapons that increase their damage output after being built.

You're right also about RP cost and the percentage effect being OP for that cost.

We could make it three techs:
- First one gives a small fixed increase (I say +4). Easier to get than current RH tech.
- Second one gives a small percentage increase (10%). Requirements similar to current RH tech but greater costs.
- Third one gives another small fixed increase (TBD) and another percentage increase (20%?). Must be an expensive, late game tech.

Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:24 pm
And we forgot to mention one important reason why the base hull gets the +5 structure boost: you should be able to use the base hull even if your enemy uses mines.

If we change reinforced hull tech we either need to dump that idea, lower damage from mines for base hull, change the way mines work (e.g. just damaging ships down to structure 1), or add a way how to up the structure of a base hull (e.g. internal part with +3 structure for 6PP - we now have three internal slots so we could use up to two for armour).

The last one (expensive internal armour) would be probably prohibitive for troop pods but for outposts and colony ships it would suffice. For chaff one would probably prefer to buy a second comsat at the same price.
I disagree that you have to be able to use base hulls with enemy mines. Actually, currently we can't late game, for the 14 damage mines.
But these techs could be tailored to allow some research race between mines and hull reinforcent.
Whether first mines should counter or not base (non-reiforced) hulls or not is open for debate.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#6 Post by ovarwa » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:41 am

Hi,

Assigning a flat value rather than a percentage does help smaller hulls proportionally more, and maybe that's a good thing. The organic line struggles if stealth is not considered (and it shouldn't be since it is acknowledged to be in need of an overhaul), and that +5 is helpful, since base structure is so low and external slots so few.

More advanced tech that provides a percentile bonus only makes big hulls even more better.

Just me.

Anyway,

Ken

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#7 Post by Oberlus » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:43 pm

Mid to late game, where shots do >15 damage, +5 structure is negligible, can seldom mean one more hit for the shit.
Since a single armour part would be giving +18, +30 or +40 structure, small hulls with few external slots would get a real benefit if they get that kind of boost from the tech.
Otherwise, the only real beneficiary of RH are base hulls in general against mines (until mines3) and comsats in particular against MDs (and future GBS) and interceptors. Any other weapon can still one-shot a comsat and the smallest unarmored hulls (like the compressed energy hull: from 5 to 10, it's still one Laser4 shot), and those weapons (at least lasers) are researched sooner than RH.

Regarding effect on small vs big hulls, +1 hit for a small ship that can only take 1 or 2 hits is a huge boost (equivalent to +100% or +50% fleet structure), while +1 hit to hulls that can take 10 or 20 hits to die is negligible. On the other hand, as pointed out by Ophiuchus and ovarwa, this tech is expected to benefit only or at least mostly to small hulls, so a percentage-based bonus should be discarded (we could change our mind later if we think it is necessary for balance purposes).

So what about this:

(Assuming base hull structure 2)
- RH1: +2 structure to all hulls, another +5 to hulls with more than 3 structure, research costs comparable to Mines1, tech requirement TBD.
Makes base hulls resist 1xMD1 or 1xGBS1 shots, and Mines1.
Other hulls are getting +1 MD5/L2 hits.

- RH2: +3 structure to all hulls, another +8 to hulls with more than 3 structure, research cost and tech requirement similar to current RH, maybe greater.
Base hulls survive 2xMD1, 1xMD4, 1xGBS2 and Mines2.
Other hulls get (counting previous RH upgrades) +1 P4/DR1 hits. In total it counts as a free level 3 armour part (+18 structure).

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#8 Post by ovarwa » Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:32 am

Hi,

If Flak Guns were given a damage of, say, 20 per shot, but could only target fighters and comsats (ships without weapons, troops, colonizers or outposts), that might ameliorate various problems, including the interaction of Reinforced Hull and Comsats.

Just saying.

Anyway,

Ken

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#9 Post by Ophiuchus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:27 am

ovarwa wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:32 am
Hi,

If Flak Guns were given a damage of, say, 20 per shot, but could only target fighters and comsats (ships without weapons, troops, colonizers or outposts), that might ameliorate various problems, including the interaction of Reinforced Hull and Comsats.

Just saying.

Anyway,

Ken
So what happens if i add a troop part for 2 PP to my comsat?
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Furthermore, I propse... we should default to four combat rounds instead of three ...for the good of playerkind.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#10 Post by ovarwa » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:45 pm

Hi,
Ophiuchus wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:27 am
ovarwa wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:32 am
Hi,

If Flak Guns were given a damage of, say, 20 per shot, but could only target fighters and comsats (ships without weapons, troops, colonizers or outposts), that might ameliorate various problems, including the interaction of Reinforced Hull and Comsats.

Just saying.

Anyway,

Ken
So what happens if i add a troop part for 2 PP to my comsat?
Making it a normal Troop Drop ship? It's a fair point.

I'm fine with flak guns blowing that kind of ship out of the sky along with fightercraft. So maybe any fighters and any system ships.

Anyway,

Ken

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#11 Post by Oberlus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:30 pm

A weapon part of cost 20 PPs, 3 shots per 20 damage per shot, that can target fighters and ships, unlocked at start. Hmmm, interesting.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#12 Post by swaq » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:40 pm

Oberlus wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:30 pm
A weapon part of cost 20 PPs, 3 shots per 20 damage per shot, that can target fighters and ships, unlocked at start. Hmmm, interesting.
:lol:

I think a more interesting and less broken mechanic might be a weapon that insta-kills some number of ships with 9 or less hitpoints remaining but does zero damage to anything stronger. This wipes out reinforced comsats, scouts, and some nearly dead ships but wouldn't scale to be a real combat weapon.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#13 Post by Oberlus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:30 pm

swaq wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:40 pm
a weapon that insta-kills some number of ships with 9 or less hitpoints remaining but does zero damage to anything stronger. This wipes out reinforced comsats, scouts, and some nearly dead ships but wouldn't scale to be a real combat weapon.
Sounds like mines effect. Could be some kind of ship part, maybe requiring a core slot, that does mine damage after combat. Arguably OP against swarms of small ships, but worth its own thread for debate I think.

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#14 Post by ovarwa » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:34 pm

Hi,
swaq wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:40 pm
Oberlus wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:30 pm
A weapon part of cost 20 PPs, 3 shots per 20 damage per shot, that can target fighters and ships, unlocked at start. Hmmm, interesting.
:lol:

I think a more interesting and less broken mechanic might be a weapon that insta-kills some number of ships with 9 or less hitpoints remaining but does zero damage to anything stronger. This wipes out reinforced comsats, scouts, and some nearly dead ships but wouldn't scale to be a real combat weapon.
Well, I didn't propose that this could target *any* ships, just the spam ships that really should be easily swatted out of the sky. The first iteration could only touch ships that didn't have any 'real' components; the second only those that were in-system ships.

Anyway,

Ken

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Re: Reinforced Hull redesign

#15 Post by Oberlus » Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:46 pm

ovarwa wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:34 pm
I didn't propose that this could target *any* ships
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. So only troop ships (as you said before about targetting ships with troop pods) and ships without weaponry? Including big hulls full of armour parts for chaff? Or should we also exclude ships that has armour parts but does not have weapon parts?

No, seriously, I don't think the idea is worth it, it clashes with any fluff, and we already got solutions to the comsat problems: figthers, the incomming multishot weapon by Ophiuchus, the redesign of the base hull, etc.

Now I'll appreciate if we leave this thread for the OP's subject and talk about other stuff in the already open threads.

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