Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

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ThinkSome
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#31 Post by ThinkSome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:45 pm
ThinkSome wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:36 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:27 am ... insert a lot more mostly empty systems in galaxy generation ...
Please no, that would drastically increase memory requirements.
I seriously doubt that. Do you mean RAM?
Yes. freeoriond got oom'd on 900 systems on my server (1GB RAM, of which at least 500 MB were free at the time of start).

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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#32 Post by Ophiuchus »

ThinkSome wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:45 pm
Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:45 pm
ThinkSome wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:36 pm

Please no, that would drastically increase memory requirements.
I seriously doubt that. Do you mean RAM?
Yes. freeoriond got oom'd on 900 systems on my server (1GB RAM, of which at least 500 MB were free at the time of start).
Well you would need to compare the RAM usage to less systems, how much RAM does the game need with 30 systems and the same amount of empires?
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labgnome
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#33 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:34 pmI think the refueling influence project will help in more than this case. E.g. one could start like battlestar galactica a colony ship going into the deep without scouting before. Also helps hidden colonisation in enemy territory (because no refuel there). AI probably wont be able to use it for a long time.
The influence project idea seems to have the most utility. I'm not super concerned with the AI using it, but maybe someone else can speak to that.
Personally I think adding the same effect like adding a fuel tank to the colony parts would not hurt. It feels a bit messy in the sense that it needs an effect and needs to be considered by AI. Bigger fuel boost would be strange because you maybe would start mounting a colony part in order to boost your military ship.
You're probably right. We definitely don't want the colony part becoming a better fuel tank. That may be an unavoidable problem.
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Vezzra
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#34 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:21 pm
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:46 pmRemoving the situations in which you struggle with supply/fuel reach is not something good to have.
Situationally I agree, but I think that the idea is more for combat, but I do not necessarily agree in the case of expansion.
I think I need to drop in here and back Oberlus: That definitely also applies in the case of expansion. Trying to reach out far early on should be difficult and challenging. Not impossible, but definitely not easy.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#35 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:34 pmI think the refueling influence project will help in more than this case. E.g. one could start like battlestar galactica a colony ship going into the deep without scouting before. Also helps hidden colonisation in enemy territory (because no refuel there). AI probably wont be able to use it for a long time.

Personally I think adding the same effect like adding a fuel tank to the colony parts would not hurt. It feels a bit messy in the sense that it needs an effect and needs to be considered by AI. Bigger fuel boost would be strange because you maybe would start mounting a colony part in order to boost your military ship.
https://github.com/freeorion/freeorion/pull/3039

Does not affect ships with weapons.
Vezzra wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:25 am
labgnome wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:21 pm
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:46 pmRemoving the situations in which you struggle with supply/fuel reach is not something good to have.
Situationally I agree, but I think that the idea is more for combat, but I do not necessarily agree in the case of expansion.
I think I need to drop in here and back Oberlus: That definitely also applies in the case of expansion. Trying to reach out far early on should be difficult and challenging. Not impossible, but definitely not easy.
I added +3 fuel with the policy. Is that likely to be too much, removing too much of the challenge of supply / fuel, or perhaps too little to be ever worth using?

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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#36 Post by Vezzra »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:53 amI added +3 fuel with the policy. Is that likely to be too much, removing too much of the challenge of supply / fuel, or perhaps too little to be ever worth using?
Let's wait for some feedback from our playtesters...

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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#37 Post by Oberlus »

I think +3 fuel is excessive.
HullBase fuelExtra fuel from tank
Basic Medium3NA
Spatial Flux Bubble6NA
Robotic2NA
Symbiotic21
Static Multicellular21
With Sly (no supply at all), using Spatial Flux Bubble I can colonize without having to stop for slow refuelling in every galaxy shape and planet density: there is always a GG at 7 hops or less from HW. I am forced to use that hull indeed, but that is not a problem. The only reasonable alternative for a stealth distributed empire are the early organic hulls, but those need more research time and have much less fuel. One can switch to camouflage asteroids or organics later, but against AI (that neglects detection techs), the Bubble with upgraded stealth techs is enough for colonization of the whole galaxy. Tested in several games.
The only problem that Sly can have, only sometimes, seldom, is for their starting colony ship (basic medium) not finding a GG within 4 hops of the HW. That would be solved by starting with an outpost ship along the colony ship.

With non-supply-crippled species, basic medium hull is good for reaching planets at 5-7 hops from HW. For roughs starts, you can get Orb. Cons. (+1 supply) soon and/or prioritize colonization of tiny/small planets for the extra supply. I never need to wait for slow refuelling, there is always an alternative, although it might involve getting first the smaller or less interesting planets, and very seldom delaying for a few turns the next colonization (due to needing to outpost an uninhabitable planet). But usually it is the need for armed ships what really delays my expansion with non-stealth empires, not that my colony ships can't reach destination.

So giving +3 fuel seems to me like huge and unnecessary.
And a no-brainer (at least for now, with current available policies) if it comes paired with cheaper colony parts. I think it should be one thing or the other. Maybe add a new policy that makes colony parts more expensive with +2 fuel.

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LienRag
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#38 Post by LienRag »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:22 am
So giving +3 fuel seems to me like huge and unnecessary.
And a no-brainer (at least for now, with current available policies) if it comes paired with cheaper colony parts. I think it should be one thing or the other.
So basically what you're saying is that the supply policy shouldn't come
with cheaper colony parts, and that the availability of other policies will solve the "no-brainer" problem ?

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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#39 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 1:56 pm
Oberlus wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:22 am So giving +3 fuel seems to me like huge and unnecessary.
And a no-brainer (at least for now, with current available policies) if it comes paired with cheaper colony parts. I think it should be one thing or the other.
So basically what you're saying is that the supply policy shouldn't come
with cheaper colony parts, and that the availability of other policies will solve the "no-brainer" problem ?
Yeah, sort of.

Summing up, two policies:

- Longer range for colony ships (+1 fuel).
- Cheaper colony ships (-20% cost).

With two policy slots you could get both.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#40 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:08 pmSumming up, two policies:

- Longer range for colony ships (+1 fuel).
- Cheaper colony ships (-20% cost).

With two policy slots you could get both.
A policy that gives +1 fuel to colony ships seems too narrow and minor to be worthwhile. Maybe +1 fuel to all ships would be a reasonable policy. I'd also err on the side of a bigger discount for colony ships, and perhaps make them more expensive by default (when the policy is not in place).

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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#41 Post by Oberlus »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:40 pm A policy that gives +1 fuel to colony ships seems too narrow and minor to be worthwhile. Maybe +1 fuel to all ships would be a reasonable policy. I'd also err on the side of a bigger discount for colony ships, and perhaps make them more expensive by default (when the policy is not in place).
Seems reasonable.

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labgnome
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#42 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:08 pmSumming up, two policies:

- Longer range for colony ships (+1 fuel).
- Cheaper colony ships (-20% cost).

With two policy slots you could get both.
I think that splitting it up into two policies is a good idea. Maybe one or both could have a -1 malus to supply as extended colonization is usually a different strategy from extended supply.
Geoff the Medio wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:40 pmA policy that gives +1 fuel to colony ships seems too narrow and minor to be worthwhile. Maybe +1 fuel to all ships would be a reasonable policy. I'd also err on the side of a bigger discount for colony ships, and perhaps make them more expensive by default (when the policy is not in place).
For fuel, I would have a larger bonus, maybe +2, or even the original +3. Especially if we have a -1 to supply.

Colony parts are already expensive enough. I would be hesitant to increase the cost of the colony parts.
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LienRag
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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#43 Post by LienRag »

Geoff the Medio wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:40 pm A policy that gives +1 fuel to colony ships seems too narrow and minor to be worthwhile. Maybe +1 fuel to all ships would be a reasonable policy. I'd also err on the side of a bigger discount for colony ships, and perhaps make them more expensive by default (when the policy is not in place).
You're really talking about two different things...
+1 fuel is mostly a military policy, +n for Colony Ships only is a specialized policy for specific needs (like scattered colonization).
Too minor to be worthwhile in many cases, interesting (if n is big enough) for a specialized strategy. Isn't it what we want Policies to be ?

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Re: Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

#44 Post by Oberlus »

LienRag wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:11 pm +1 fuel is mostly a military policy, +n for Colony Ships only is a specialized policy for specific needs (like scattered colonization).
Too minor to be worthwhile in many cases, interesting (if n is big enough) for a specialized strategy. Isn't it what we want Policies to be ?
Actually not really interesting regardless of n, because there are specialized hulls for that: early game you have flux bubble, with 6 fuel and stealth.

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