Make Colony Parts Boost Fuel

[Oberlus]

Oberlus, 0.5 (which seems to be the default) per part is simply not reasonable when you only have 1-2 internal slots on early-mid game ships (when you need that stuff the most). Especially when you consider that small basic hull can do 8 jumps.

There are hulls for which the extra fuel per fuel tank is 1. It depends on the fuel efficiency of the hull.

[LienRag]

I get the point of making Colony hulls go further than two jumps out of supply, but basically that's what Bubble Flux Hulls are for.
Protoplasmic Hulls with two fuel parts (and, indeed, a Ramscoop for extra distance) are quite good for that usage too.

So making the Colony part gives +1 fuel is not in itself a bad idea, but it's not that essentiel either.

[labgnome]

I get the point of making Colony hulls go further than two jumps out of supply, but basically that's what Bubble Flux Hulls are for.
Protoplasmic Hulls with two fuel parts (and, indeed, a Ramscoop for extra distance) are quite good for that usage too.

It still doesn't make your initial colony ship any more useful.

[Oberlus]

It still doesn't make your initial colony ship any more useful.

Occasions in which you can't use your first colony ship (basic hull) are very rare (maybe not so rare when playing low planet density, but then better play medium/high density). In those cases, you can use one outpost ship on a planet that will be of use to you later (a poor planet for your starting species, or anything for Exobots) and use that to refuel your colony ship.
Removing the situations in which you struggle with supply/fuel reach is not something good to have.

[Ophiuchus]

Do you mean fuel efficiency? The usual suspect hulls (medium hull, organics, flux bubble) for colonisation have exactly the same effective fuel when mounting a colony pod as before (what a coincidence )

Yes I mean fuel efficiency.

They do not have the same effective fuel. The medium hull has 3 fuel with 200% efficiency. The Organic hull has 2 fuel and 200% efficiency. The flux bubble hull has 6 fuel and 400% efficiency.

And if i am not mistaken, before fuel efficiency medium hull had 3 fuel, organic hull had 2 fuel and flux bubble hull had 6 fuel.
With 200% fuel efficiency a fuel tank gives 1 fuel like before. Flux bubble has only one internal slot, so the fuel boost only works if you put a fuel tank and not a colony (giving a fueled bubble hull at start 8 fuel like small hulls).

So actually same effective fuel as before.

That is maybe not what you want, but maybe that is OK. Please elaborate why that is not OK. Focus on reducing necessary management or enabling diversity of strategies.

In addition to being costly early in the game it's micromanagement and a major obstacle to a distributed strategy.

I agree with with Oberlus, usually you are fine without outpost and it is usually ok if you need to build few outposts (a small or tiny planet close to your end of reach (or a little bit further out) is great, else any will suffice). And like LienRag said, flux bubble or organic line with fuel tanks/tech helps a lot. With easier exobots this might have gotten more payoff.

I am not sure what you mean by obstacle - obstacle like challenge is ok. Is it breaking/preventing distributed strategy? maybe post your settings/turn 1 savegame where you think this is broken.

For peaceful hidden expansion detection techs are currently the major obstacle/gamebreaker (against players).

I think placement of Outposts/colonies is essential if you go far out - there could be some easing stuff - e.g. build an outpost via influence project (maybe only possible if you have a (colony?) ship in the system).

[LienRag]

It still doesn't make your initial colony ship any more useful.

Indeed. It is sometimes frustrating to not be able to put the first colony ship on the planet one wants to, since early game that can make a lot of difference.
That's what I said that I'm not against giving +1 fuel to the Colony part.

[Ophiuchus]

It still doesn't make your initial colony ship any more useful.

Indeed. It is sometimes frustrating to not be able to put the first colony ship on the planet one wants to, since early game that can make a lot of difference.
That's what I said that I'm not against giving +1 fuel to the Colony part.

But if it this frustration we address a +1 wont help the general case. If we add one fuel, there will still be planets which are just 1 hop out of reach. If this is the main problem the solution should be a focus (e.g. logistics focus), a project or a policy.

[labgnome]

It still doesn't make your initial colony ship any more useful.

Occasions in which you can't use your first colony ship (basic hull) are very rare (maybe not so rare when playing low planet density, but then better play medium/high density).

I play with medium to high density. Maybe it's been bad luck, but it's happened more than a few times for me.

Removing the situations in which you struggle with supply/fuel reach is not something good to have.

Situationally I agree, but I think that the idea is more for combat, but I do not necessarily agree in the case of expansion.

I think placement of Outposts/colonies is essential if you go far out - there could be some easing stuff - e.g. build an outpost via influence project (maybe only possible if you have a (colony?) ship in the system).

I think I'd rather have a refueling via influence project than building an outpost via influence project.

[LienRag]

There are hulls for which the extra fuel per fuel tank is 1. It depends on the fuel efficiency of the hull.

Actually that may be the problem. Minimum amount of extra fuel should be 1 per fuel tank.

Maybe giving an outpost ship in addition to the Colony ship on start ?
I don't have enough experience with the game to understand if this would equalize starting positions or on the reverse worsen the random factor.
It probably would make things more confused for new players, though.

[Oberlus]

There are hulls for which the extra fuel per fuel tank is 1. It depends on the fuel efficiency of the hull.

Actually that may be the problem. Minimum amount of extra fuel should be 1 per fuel tank.

Disagree. Some hulls are better at fuel some are worse. Pick up the right ones for the task.

Maybe giving an outpost ship in addition to the Colony ship on start ?

That's the default in multiplayer games, works fine.

[Ophiuchus]

There are hulls for which the extra fuel per fuel tank is 1. It depends on the fuel efficiency of the hull.

Actually that may be the problem. Minimum amount of extra fuel should be 1 per fuel tank.

Disagree. Some hulls are better at fuel some are worse. Pick up the right ones for the task.

One unifying approach:

1. double all base fuel and fuel efficiency bonus - that means also average fuel efficiency with basic tech fuel tank will be +1 fuel - only the bad efficiency will have less than 1 fuel per tank (that probably caters better to user expectations)
2. double supply effects
3. increase the distances: insert a lot more mostly empty systems in galaxy generation so average hop distance between systems with planets is doubled. in a circle/square galaxy layout that probably means four times as many systems
4. double ship speed
5. keep supply growth at +1 (this means full two turns growth necessary per supply boost)

the first four combined should lead to a similar balance like a current one. the fourth plus the fifth (speed + supply growth) would give ships the opportunity to outrun supply growth. if done right there would be more space for doing strategic manoeuvres.
And this removes floats for some cases. The main downside I see would be that doubling the reach in hops leads to longer routes which maybe could cost more CPU for routing (not sure if that matters).

Maybe giving an outpost ship in addition to the Colony ship on start ?

That's the default in multiplayer games, works fine.

Was suggested for single player as well, somebody please implement (or put up an feature request if there is none).

@labgnome would you try and report back if this suffices?

[labgnome]

Actually that may be the problem. Minimum amount of extra fuel should be 1 per fuel tank.

Disagree. Some hulls are better at fuel some are worse. Pick up the right ones for the task.

One unifying approach:

1. double all base fuel and fuel efficiency bonus - that means also average fuel efficiency with basic tech fuel tank will be +1 fuel - only the bad efficiency will have less than 1 fuel per tank (that probably caters better to user expectations)
2. double supply effects
3. increase the distances: insert a lot more mostly empty systems in galaxy generation so average hop distance between systems with planets is doubled. in a circle/square galaxy layout that probably means four times as many systems
4. double ship speed
5. keep supply growth at +1 (this means full two turns growth necessary per supply boost)

the first four combined should lead to a similar balance like a current one. the fourth plus the fifth (speed + supply growth) would give ships the opportunity to outrun supply growth. if done right there would be more space for doing strategic manoeuvres.
And this removes floats for some cases. The main downside I see would be that doubling the reach in hops leads to longer routes which maybe could cost more CPU for routing (not sure if that matters).

So this doesn't actually solve my problem, as the medium hull can't equip a fuel part and a colony part (neither can the flux bubble, nor the robotic, nor the organic). I also feel like it's veering off topic. At the minimum this is about addressing the problem of what to do about (especially the early) colony ships. Not a re-work of the fuel system and galaxy generation or having ships move faster than supply growth.

Maybe giving an outpost ship in addition to the Colony ship on start ?

That's the default in multiplayer games, works fine.

Was suggested for single player as well, somebody please implement (or put up an feature request if there is none).

@labgnome would you try and report back if this suffices?

I can see it helping, but I don't know that it fully solves the issue. Personally I think that if we aren't going to give a fuel boost to the colony part then the best suggestion is the refueling influence project.

[ThinkSome]

... insert a lot more mostly empty systems in galaxy generation ...

Please no, that would drastically increase memory requirements.

[Ophiuchus]

... insert a lot more mostly empty systems in galaxy generation ...

Please no, that would drastically increase memory requirements.

I seriously doubt that. Do you mean RAM?

[Ophiuchus]

So this doesn't actually solve my problem

Sorry, was not related to the OP but more to handling fractions, including one idea that supply should only grow half as much as it does now and the surprising fact that average fuel efficiency is 200%. (so rather answering Oberlus and LienRag than you). I will shut up on those topics here.

On the topic of starting with a colony ship and an outpost ship

Was suggested for single player as well, somebody please implement (or put up an feature request if there is none).

@labgnome would you try and report back if this suffices?

I can see it helping, but I don't know that it fully solves the issue. Personally I think that if we aren't going to give a fuel boost to the colony part then the best suggestion is the refueling influence project.

I think the refueling influence project will help in more than this case. E.g. one could start like battlestar galactica a colony ship going into the deep without scouting before. Also helps hidden colonisation in enemy territory (because no refuel there). AI probably wont be able to use it for a long time.

Personally I think adding the same effect like adding a fuel tank to the colony parts would not hurt. It feels a bit messy in the sense that it needs an effect and needs to be considered by AI. Bigger fuel boost would be strange because you maybe would start mounting a colony part in order to boost your military ship.