RFC Multi-turn split fleet combat

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Ophiuchus
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RFC Multi-turn split fleet combat

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

In one of the latest tactical combat groundhog days someone suggested making combat more tactical by allowing for user-interaction. In response I came up with an idea which would allow one to make a few tactical decisions while battle lasts without compromising the offline turn flow.

I myself was not too sure that the idea was useful but now I got used to think about it and I think it could be quite fine.
So I would like to know from the community what one thinks about such split combat and multi-turn mechanics. Maybe also let the ideas sink in first.

So the idea has two components which mix neatly:
  1. split-turn combat (i.e. only some of the combat bouts happen in the turn the combat starts
  2. multi-turn combat (i.e. combat will be different for ships which were participating the last turn in combat)
Split-turn combat means that every turn, instead of one combat phase, there are two combat phases, the start phase and the finish phase.
The start combat phase happens like current combat after movement is done.
The finish combat phase continues a previously started combat before movement orders are executed.
That means for the user that one can reorganise fleets, switch fleet focus, etc in the middle of combat.
As example:
  1. Turn 10 / Empires issue orders: ophiuchus sends a fleet to a neighbouring system in turn 10 and finishes the turn.
  2. Movement is executed: The fleet arrives in the neighbouring system.
  3. There are enemy ships so start combat phase is executed (3 combat bouts).
  4. other effects happening
  5. Turn 11 / Empires issue orders: The enemy is strong and ophiuchus wants to send some of the damaged ships back home. In order to take out the most dangerous enemy ships ophiuchus chooses "target big guns first" combat policy. And finishes turn 11. The enemy chooses "target fleeing enemies first" combat policy and finishes turn 11.
  6. Finish combat phase is executed (2 combat bouts). Some of the damaged ships get shot down by the enemy
  7. Movement is executed: the non-destroyed ships in the damaged fleet jump out of the system
  8. other effects happening
  9. Start combat phase is executed (3 combat bouts): the remaining ships fight
  10. Turn 12 / Empires issue orders: Rinse and repeat
While there are some technical issues (e.g. effect application timing) which should be addressed in design first - implementation should be manageable.

I used in the example policies for combat targeting orders to skip the micromanagement of fleet focus. But actually I think having the choice/burden to set focus per combat would be definitly ok. Also extra fleet focus available only in combat might still be acceptable: its not possible to (micro)manage fleets which are not in combat and at the end of the start combat phase one probably has enough information about the enemy to make an informed choice/tactical decision.
So e.g. with combined with the ranges approach, after three combat bouts all ships are unhidden and all weapons are in firing range.


Multi-turn combat means that there are differences in combat depending if a fleet was already fighting, entering combat, or fleeing combat.

A minimal model for multi turn combat could be: give a stealth malus if the ship was in the battle last turn (Maybe one and a half levels, so 30 stealth with current content).

Multi-turn combat in combination with the range proposal would mean that ships which were last turn in combat start the combat still unhidden and already in close range combat.

Ships entering in a later turn would have to go through LR (SR/CR weapons cant hit), SR (CR weapons cant hit) bouts before reaching CR.
Combined with split-turn combat, fleeing ships could be prevented from firing and maybe go through SR, LR bouts before coming clear to jump.

The good thing about this is that for combining stealth etc. you basically do not have to reason about what happens for which number of bouts per combat (which one can set at game creation). You basically have "endless" combat bouts per combat. Basically a lower number of bouts per combat only means more "breakpoints" where ships may enter or flee from combat. Note that for balancing one still has to decide for a default number of combat bouts per combat (e.g. one LR, one SR, then typically three CR) in order to choose the damage level of e.g. CR weapons.

One more variant as an example how bouts could be split and how this combines with multi-turn and ranges
  1. Turn A...
  2. Start combat phase - Bout 1: LR for all fleets
  3. Start combat phase - Bout 2: SR for all fleets
  4. Start combat phase - Bout 3: CR for all fleets
  5. Turn B...
  6. Finish Combat Phase - Bout 1: CR for all fleets
  7. Finish Combat Phase - Bout 2: SR for fleeing fleets, CR for all other fleets
  8. Finish Combat Phase - Bout 3: LR for fleeing fleets, CR for all other fleets
  9. Fleeing fleets move out, other fleets may arrive
  10. Start Combat Phase - Bout 1: LR for arriving fleets, CR for all other fleets
  11. Start Combat Phase - Bout 2: SR for arriving fleets, CR for all other fleets
  12. Start Combat Phase - Bout 3: CR for arriving fleets, CR for all other fleets
  13. Turn C...
Note 1: Finish Combat Phase - Bout 1 - Bout 1 (6.) is the first bout that well hidden CR ships get shot at, that means that hidden CR ships get a nice hit and run ratio against unhidden CR ships (attacking twice and only get attacked once).

Note 2: Setting the number of combat bouts in game creation would have to change to setting the "optional number of short range combat bouts". So in the example that would be set to one - "Finish Combat Phase - Bout 1" is the only ~optional bout. One can add more CRa bouts between bullet points 6. and 7. ; so if "optional number of short range combat bouts" is set to three, the Start Combat Phase would have five bouts

Note 3: A higher number of combat bouts can easily be balanced by scaling damage and structure values accordingly
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: RFC Multi-turn split fleet combat

#2 Post by Oberlus »

Finish Combat Phase - Bout 2: SR for fleeing fleets, CR for all other fleets
I see a problem here. Would fleeing fleets not be able to use their CR weapons on the enemies pursuing them while those enemies would be able to use their CR weapons? Unfair an counterintuitive.
Otherwise, to make pursuing ships be at SR with respect to the fleeing ships and at CR respect to the others, looks like combat system would be much more complicated.

The general idea, I like it, but I'm afraid it is complex enough to be wary about it.

Once we are here, in this form of tactical combat, with just two more elements ( a kind of "board" for tracking distances, and ship speeds) we would get fully tactical combat. Ships could try to flee from the first combat round, or to stay at LR for the whole combat, etc. And that idea was deemed as too complicated.

I'm betting Geoff will say "too complicated".

Ophiuchus
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Re: RFC Multi-turn split fleet combat

#3 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:16 pm
Finish Combat Phase - Bout 2: SR for fleeing fleets, CR for all other fleets
I see a problem here. Would fleeing fleets not be able to use their CR weapons on the enemies pursuing them while those enemies would be able to use their CR weapons?
What I meant: fleeing ships do not shoot and in that bout they already left CR i.e. can only be targeted by SR or LR weapons (symmetric to entering combat). The mental model is not relative distances but there is a thick tangled battle where everybody gets drawn into (CR,SR,LR can hit), and a reach/area where combateers are not yet drawn into (SR,LR) and a remote area where combat sparsely begins (LR) (my english is too bad, please somebody help me out). The idea was that fleeing fleets break free of the tangle moving through normal combat (SR) and then remote combat (LR) areas before being out of reach. There is no equivalent to pursueing but specialised targeting fleeing ships.
In sitrep one the row per ship would also note either a change of reach (or the current reach); e.g. remote,common,tangled reach. An icon for this could be concentric circles similar to:
((o)) for LR, ((o)) for SR,LR ((o)) for CR,SR,LR; or half-open like
((o for LR, ((o for LR,SR, ((o for LR,SR,CR

It would also be ok to say fleeing ships have to endure some SR bouts before leaving. It's simpler.
Oberlus wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:16 pm... tactical combat. Ships could try to flee from the first combat round, or to stay at LR for the whole combat, etc. And that idea was deemed as too complicated.
Well this one is definitely less complicated. Note also that different from some other suggestions combat orders are not conditional but rather simple imperative.

Thanks for the feedback to the example. Could you elaborate your feelings on the two component?


edit1: cleanup , added details on the mental area/reach model
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Oberlus
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Re: RFC Multi-turn split fleet combat

#4 Post by Oberlus »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:56 pmCould you elaborate your feelings on the two component?
I've been thinking on that.
The split of combat into two parts, I don't think that is necessary, I don't see what good does it make to the game.

I'm comparing it to a simpler form with non-split multi-turn combats (i.e., one phase of combat per turn), and the only "advantage" I see is that introducing a second combat phase allows to represent the combat for fleeing fleets without the need to tinker with how fleet movement works. Currently, if a fleet is not blockaded, it will flee, and the only damage it will receive is from the combat on the previous turn; if the fleet is not blockaded, it won't flee and will participate in a normal combat phase this turn. So, this proposal seems to me like a workaround to allow for fleeing ships to receive more damage.

I fail to see the tactical fun in here (this is subjective, ofc). I don't see this brings in any new tactic or strategy, just an increase of required player attention to each combat, to change or not tactic orders.
If we had ship speeds that affect how many bouts is each ship on each range depending on the relative speeds and tactical orders of all ships involved in combat, I would change my mind, since that would introduce a new variable to the tactics: speeds.

I think with current combat system + targetting we already have all the tactics this proposal has.

I think best form is to stick to a single combat phase per turn, make targetting not dependent on fleet toggles that the player can change every combat but on ship parts/leaders (that the player can't change from turn to turn), and assume that any damage for the fleeing fleet is represented by the combat phase of the previous turn.



But I like that conditional range thingy depending on whether the ship was or wasn't on the previous combat phase. It might be problematic for balance, or not, by making CR weapons and high-structure hulls better than intended (if CR weapons do more damage per shot to compensate they have less bouts to shot, and then they manage to shot all combat bouts of second and following combats, then they are OP; if CR weapons get less damage per shot but it becomes hard to keep CR ships alive for next turn combats, then CR weapons might be UP). I would test that extensively outside of master.

Ophiuchus
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Re: RFC Multi-turn split fleet combat

#5 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:35 amI'm comparing it to a simpler form with non-split multi-turn combats (i.e., one phase of combat per turn),
I misread you, but that was fruitful :lol:

How about to compare it with non-split multi-turn combat with only one bout per turn? With stealth and ranges working independent of the number of bouts you could choose your tactical level (meaning how often you can interfere while combat lasts) by setting the number of bouts. Probably we should then also a setting for damage so one can balance the pacing of how fast battles are decided. I think a base shot multiplier would suffice nicely there - if one sets up the galaxy with half the number of bouts per turn and double the number of shots the combat will probably take about the same number of turns as it would without the change.
So, yes, split combat would differ mostly in flee and reinforce.
Allowing relevant tactical choices to be made only for ships in battle would also be possible with multi-turn combats.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:35 amsplit of combat into two parts, ... seems to me like a workaround to allow for fleeing ships to receive more damage.
Fair enough. That was not the intention, but it is probably the main effect because flee and reinforce are more or less the only tactical options we have in the game currently. I do not think shooting at fleeing ships is a must-have feature.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:35 amBut I like that conditional range thingy depending on whether the ship was or wasn't on the previous combat phase. ... . I would test that extensively outside of master.
Yes, I completely agree. And/Or we make that balancing assumption also configurable ("Number of average expected bouts a combat lasts" or "Lang Range damage multiplier"&"Close Range damage multiplier") and use that value(s) in a macro.
Any code or patches in anything posted here is released under the CC and GPL licences in use for the FO project.

Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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