Species modified during gameplay?
Moderator: Oberlus
Species modified during gameplay?
Xenological Hybridization.
I have wet dreams with this technology, or better said with the idea of modifying (creating new) species based on the species your empire already have. This would be brand new mechanic in the game, with all the fuss that it involves to design, code and balance it. But let's see if it could be worth it.
What I have in mind implies a new window (or view) similar to the ship design window, where you could add and remove traits from species. And there should be rules to constraint what can be done to avoid it being OP. Say for now that each species only accepts traits from species of the same metabolism, only one trait (maybe two with an expensive refinement of the tech), the traits are averaged rounding up: if you give a good population trait to a bad population species, you get an average population species; good plus average gives you good (rounding up), average or bad plus great gives good; and good plus great gives you great. And to avoid an obvious exploit, hybrid species should not be hybridisable again (you can only create new species from starting ones).
An example:
You have Laenfa (phototrophic, telepathic, good population, ocean broad, good stockpile, bad defence and offence troops, great detection and stealth) and Chato (phototrophic, toxic broad, great research, bad offence troops). You take Laenfa as the starting species and give it great research, so you get a Laenfa+ species that is phototrophic, telepathic, good population, ocean broad, good stockpile, bad defence and offence troops, great detection, great stealth and good research.
The environment preferences could be ignored (not modifiable, which seems uninteresting), treated as another trait that can be "traded" and is averaged with the original trait (so that giving Tencher's barren standard to ocean narrow Happybirthday would make Happybirthday+ desert standard, assuming the narrow/standard/broad part of the trait is also rounded up), or as a special trait that can be traded but is not averaged (Happybirthday+ would be barren standard).
A simpler alternative implementation could be averaging all the traits of two species. Laenfa+Chato would be broad swamp, phototrophic, telepathic, good population, bad offence troops, good detection, stealth and research.
I guess the player would give the species a name. The image for it could be the one from the starting species with colours changed, or new images from a pool. Things like Pedia descriptions should be up to the player, but would have little importance (maybe on multiplayer games if you want to brag about your creations, but will banish once the game ends).
What do you think?
I have wet dreams with this technology, or better said with the idea of modifying (creating new) species based on the species your empire already have. This would be brand new mechanic in the game, with all the fuss that it involves to design, code and balance it. But let's see if it could be worth it.
What I have in mind implies a new window (or view) similar to the ship design window, where you could add and remove traits from species. And there should be rules to constraint what can be done to avoid it being OP. Say for now that each species only accepts traits from species of the same metabolism, only one trait (maybe two with an expensive refinement of the tech), the traits are averaged rounding up: if you give a good population trait to a bad population species, you get an average population species; good plus average gives you good (rounding up), average or bad plus great gives good; and good plus great gives you great. And to avoid an obvious exploit, hybrid species should not be hybridisable again (you can only create new species from starting ones).
An example:
You have Laenfa (phototrophic, telepathic, good population, ocean broad, good stockpile, bad defence and offence troops, great detection and stealth) and Chato (phototrophic, toxic broad, great research, bad offence troops). You take Laenfa as the starting species and give it great research, so you get a Laenfa+ species that is phototrophic, telepathic, good population, ocean broad, good stockpile, bad defence and offence troops, great detection, great stealth and good research.
The environment preferences could be ignored (not modifiable, which seems uninteresting), treated as another trait that can be "traded" and is averaged with the original trait (so that giving Tencher's barren standard to ocean narrow Happybirthday would make Happybirthday+ desert standard, assuming the narrow/standard/broad part of the trait is also rounded up), or as a special trait that can be traded but is not averaged (Happybirthday+ would be barren standard).
A simpler alternative implementation could be averaging all the traits of two species. Laenfa+Chato would be broad swamp, phototrophic, telepathic, good population, bad offence troops, good detection, stealth and research.
I guess the player would give the species a name. The image for it could be the one from the starting species with colours changed, or new images from a pool. Things like Pedia descriptions should be up to the player, but would have little importance (maybe on multiplayer games if you want to brag about your creations, but will banish once the game ends).
What do you think?
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
It seems a bit ambitions. Stellaris has species modification thought, but that's a pretty ambitions and complicated game.
However I would that before we implement something like that as an in-game feature we should probably have a species creation option for starting off. What we would need to do first to make something like that work is to figure out how much each trait should be worth on some kind of point-buy system. So basically we need to figure out how much each trait in the game is worth and how many of those points we want players to be able to spend to create species.
However I would that before we implement something like that as an in-game feature we should probably have a species creation option for starting off. What we would need to do first to make something like that work is to figure out how much each trait should be worth on some kind of point-buy system. So basically we need to figure out how much each trait in the game is worth and how many of those points we want players to be able to spend to create species.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
Oh, yes.
species creation option for starting off. What we would need to do first to make something like that work is to figure out how much each trait should be worth on some kind of point-buy system. So basically we need to figure out how much each trait in the game is worth and how many of those points we want players to be able to spend to create species.
I also want a way to create custom species. However, that system would be independent of the tech tree, but what I talk about in the OP is not. That's why I brought it up, to see if it gets support for future implementation (and thus I can consider it in the new tech tree, along with any placeholder required until that implementation comes true) or discard it for good.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
Species creation would be really powerful. Even with limits put on it. That's not even thinking about how difficult that would be to program in. While I think the idea is cool, it's the sort of thing I think should be much further down the line if it gets implemented at all. I'm honestly not even sure if we want to give that kind of power to the player in the game.Oberlus wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:01 am I also want a way to create custom species. However, that system would be independent of the tech tree, but what I talk about in the OP is not. That's why I brought it up, to see if it gets support for future implementation (and thus I can consider it in the new tech tree, along with any placeholder required until that implementation comes true) or discard it for good.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
Could you give an example using the mechanics I sketched in the OP?
I'll wait for programmers feedback.
Again, I'm not asking for its implementation now or in a near future, I'm asking if it's reasonable to consider such mechanic to be introduced in the game. I understand you'd say no, I'd say yes, and let's see what other players and the developers think about.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
Namely you cold grab up more planet types very easily. Especially with anything having the organic metabolism. The mechanics you propose would definitely also create a balance problem between metabolism types as right now organic has the broadest range and highest number of species. An organics species with natives will definitely beat-out any other metabolism, just in the shear variety of traits and planet types they can pick through.
All of my contributions should be considered released under creative commons attribution share-alike license, CC-BY-SA 3.0 for use in, by and with the Free Orion project.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
So something like the one in Master of Orion II?labgnome wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:51 am However I would that before we implement something like that as an in-game feature we should probably have a species creation option for starting off. What we would need to do first to make something like that work is to figure out how much each trait should be worth on some kind of point-buy system. So basically we need to figure out how much each trait in the game is worth and how many of those points we want players to be able to spend to create species.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
Yes. You can discuss that idea on its own thread.AndrewW wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:15 pmSo something like the one in Master of Orion II?labgnome wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:51 am However I would that before we implement something like that as an in-game feature we should probably have a species creation option for starting off. What we would need to do first to make something like that work is to figure out how much each trait should be worth on some kind of point-buy system. So basically we need to figure out how much each trait in the game is worth and how many of those points we want players to be able to spend to create species.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
That depends, I think, on how cheap you make that tech. In FreeOrion one single species can colonise all environments if it invests enough RPs on growth techs. That is, usually, when you get Xenological Hybridization, the same tech I'm talking about here. Looking it from that glass, OP's proposal might not be that powerful. Plus it would be dependent on the galaxy setting and its random generation (if you start as a organic species in terran env. and you can't find any other organic that isn't also in desert, terran or ocean, then you cannot get much from this tech).
Anyway, if this concern about too much environment accessibility could turn out true, we could take the suggested version that ignores metabolism (so that your hybridised species can only access metabolisms that your regular species already have access to).
I'm not sure of that. But to really know it I'll need to make some simulations, it isn't obvious at first glance.The mechanics you propose would definitely also create a balance problem between metabolism types as right now organic has the broadest range and highest number of species. An organics species with natives will definitely beat-out any other metabolism, just in the shear variety of traits and planet types they can pick through.
See, organics have 18 species, none in the barren-radiated-inferno section. If environment is averaged, hybridising toxic and tundra would give you radiated, any other pairs of species would give you another organic species in their usual env. section. But this organics also have Exobots to get barren-radiated-inferno planets, so I don't see the great advantage anywhere.
Regarding variety of traits, I'm looking for the most powerful combinations, and I see e.g. Gysache + Muursh. If averaging both species (simplest mechanic in the OP), you get an organic terran (or ocean) species with good industry and pilots, all the rest average. Not bad, but not overkilling. You can do better with Gysache and Muursh without hybridising. And this was the most powerful combination I could find in this 15' I've been tinkering with it (only with organics).
If anyone finds a really concerning case, please post it.
- Krikkitone
- Creative Contributor
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- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
A few different thoughts on "species modification" techs
1. Taking an existing species and modifying it seems like the best way to balance (as opposed to just making a new species from scratch)... this way expanding your empire's Metabolism/Environmental Preference is difficult (ie requires getting natives or going for a more expensive process)
2. Point based system (similar to MOO2) works well for what we are looking at
3. The "Hybridization" idea could simply mean that picks aren't available until you get a species that has them... so you can't make a species into good pilots unless you already have a good pilots species
So I would say
-Modify a species you currently have
-Can only give it picks that belong to one of the other species you have (this is eased with a higher level tech)
-There may be a limit to the "Total amount of change" you can make [ie decreasing a pick value is still a change, and changing metabolism/environment would be a large change even if it cost no picks when starting a game] to a native/original species based on the technology level
-Have some method to "update" worlds of one species into another (as long as they are based on the same Original species.... maybe with a more advanced tech you can change world from any one species into any other you can make)
So Species Traits would have a "pick value", and some like "metabolism" would have a "change value" as well
Manipulation techs would be different based on Metabolism
Organic, Phototrophic, SelfSustaining->Biotech (separate techs for each?)
Lithic->Crystal
Robotic->Cyber
1. Taking an existing species and modifying it seems like the best way to balance (as opposed to just making a new species from scratch)... this way expanding your empire's Metabolism/Environmental Preference is difficult (ie requires getting natives or going for a more expensive process)
2. Point based system (similar to MOO2) works well for what we are looking at
3. The "Hybridization" idea could simply mean that picks aren't available until you get a species that has them... so you can't make a species into good pilots unless you already have a good pilots species
So I would say
-Modify a species you currently have
-Can only give it picks that belong to one of the other species you have (this is eased with a higher level tech)
-There may be a limit to the "Total amount of change" you can make [ie decreasing a pick value is still a change, and changing metabolism/environment would be a large change even if it cost no picks when starting a game] to a native/original species based on the technology level
-Have some method to "update" worlds of one species into another (as long as they are based on the same Original species.... maybe with a more advanced tech you can change world from any one species into any other you can make)
So Species Traits would have a "pick value", and some like "metabolism" would have a "change value" as well
Manipulation techs would be different based on Metabolism
Organic, Phototrophic, SelfSustaining->Biotech (separate techs for each?)
Lithic->Crystal
Robotic->Cyber
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
What would be the exact purpose of such a system?
If you are single player and want to be able to play (against) such species --> go FOCS scripting
If you are multi player and want to be able to play (against) such species --> get yourself a neutral human game master which decides if your suggested species are balanced or not and then go FOCS scripting (or find another way to agree the species with others you want to play the game with)
Any (e.g. point-based) system of species generation will be hard to balance.
You want a mini-puzzle game for skillfully min-maxing that point system? --> we have tons of more important things to implement, e.g. making the existing species more interesting
As I do not see people discussing multi-player game setups with their own species I think there is not much demand.
Currently with how the tech works the differences between species become less and less important (mostly pop) and here and there colonize with certain species to build ships with certain capabilities (good troops/weapons/fuel/detection). For that species are a kind of strategic resource.
Why would species "alchemy" as proposed in the OP add interesting gameplay options?
If you are single player and want to be able to play (against) such species --> go FOCS scripting
If you are multi player and want to be able to play (against) such species --> get yourself a neutral human game master which decides if your suggested species are balanced or not and then go FOCS scripting (or find another way to agree the species with others you want to play the game with)
Any (e.g. point-based) system of species generation will be hard to balance.
You want a mini-puzzle game for skillfully min-maxing that point system? --> we have tons of more important things to implement, e.g. making the existing species more interesting
As I do not see people discussing multi-player game setups with their own species I think there is not much demand.
Currently with how the tech works the differences between species become less and less important (mostly pop) and here and there colonize with certain species to build ships with certain capabilities (good troops/weapons/fuel/detection). For that species are a kind of strategic resource.
Why would species "alchemy" as proposed in the OP add interesting gameplay options?
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Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Look, ma... four combat bouts!
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
Regarding the in-mid-game species hybridisation, the purpose would be to bring in more interesting things to do. At least, I find it more interesting (looking for the good match for another of your species to colonise certain environments, or to get an interesting combination of traits) than just getting +2*SIZE pop on hostile planets and +1*SIZE on poor planets.
Not the point. It's not about creating species to fight against, is about bringing extra interest to a tech that has an inspiring name that then does something boring.If you are single [or multi] player and want to be able to play (against) such species
Many things already in the game are hard to balance. That does not make them automatically bad for gameplay. But please note that in this thread I'm not interested at all in a point-based species generation before game, only about in-game hybridisation of species.Any (e.g. point-based) system of species generation will be hard to balance.
- Krikkitone
- Creative Contributor
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- Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 6:52 pm
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
Species 'alchemy' allows the possibility of getting new species benefits through tech, not just conquest/diplomacy
It also is interesting storywise.
They are a strategic resource so it should be limited/high tech/expensive, but it would be good to add.
It also is interesting storywise.
They are a strategic resource so it should be limited/high tech/expensive, but it would be good to add.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
If we ever decide to add custom species mechanics to FO, I'd suggest something similar to what Stellaris does. Their species concept works very well, as far as I can tell.
Re: Species modified during gameplay?
And what do you think of OP's suggestions? (hybridisation of species during game, not custom species before starting a game).