Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#16 Post by Ophiuchus »

Oberlus wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:29 pm
Krikkitone wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:03 am I think the simplest way to balance the cost is to have a

Total tier # cost boost, on top of the base costs of techs

So each tech has a base cost that is roughly proportional to its benefits

Then you have a cost increase for Any research based on your total number of tiers in all themes....

so level 5 Bio + level 3 Cyber+ level 2 Mech, means you have a +300% cost increase for any tech (whether level 6 Bio or level 3 mech or level 1 Energy)
If you have level 10 Crystal, you also have a +300% cost increase (whether for level 1 Energy or level 1 Bio)
This.
I'll work with this idea. If it's not good enough and there are balancing problems regarding wide/tall research strategies, we can add on top of it the extra cost per extra theme proposed by labgnome.
So as the discussion seems to start to wrap up, i try to imagine this from the implementation viewpoint.

For implementation I guess it is possible to implement this without backend changes by factoring in the number of unlocked tier-techs (the ones the app techs depend on) in the RP calculation macro. Possibly without having to enumerate all tech names.

Shifting by tier instead of multiplier will be bit more difficult but should also be possible.

Restricting penalties to a theme should also be a bit more difficult, but it could involve enumerating all the tier-tech names of the theme (which would be ugly implementation- and maintenance-wise; and horrible for external extension). On the other hand empire meters per theme should work without enumerating the tech names.

Counting RP spent on a theme would probably mean a lot of enumerating tech names or introducing empire meters per theme.

Ordered themes (first unlocked theme becomes primary theme, second unlocked theme becomes secondary theme) would be not hard but awkward to implement. Probably using an empire meter per theme and maybe magic numbers and maybe an empire meter to track the number of unlocked themes.

Implementing bubbling-up ordered themes (like i suggested) would maybe be possible but probably ugly and messy and a little nightmare.

Another approach with an easy implementation: instead of basing the penalty on the number of themes base it on tier levels. For this calculate or watermark the highest researched tech tier. Base the penalty on the difference of that highest tier to the tier of the tech you want to research. E.g. your highest tier is 6, now you want to research a tier-1 tech - it costs now five (6 - 1) times as much as the regular cost.
This would mean that efficient multi-theme research would evenly advance tier levels. Could of course also be combined with a multi-theme penalty.
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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#17 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:49 pmSo as the discussion seems to start to wrap up, i try to imagine this from the implementation viewpoint.

For implementation I guess it is possible to implement this without backend changes by factoring in the number of unlocked tier-techs (the ones the app techs depend on) in the RP calculation macro. Possibly without having to enumerate all tech names.

Shifting by tier instead of multiplier will be bit more difficult but should also be possible.
If it's possible to do without backend changes then I think I am for it.
Ophiuchus wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:49 pmOn the other hand empire meters per theme should work without enumerating the tech names.
I will say I am curious about this one and what it would entail.

I must lament that my original topic has been completely de-railed at this point. :(
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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#18 Post by Vezzra »

Oberlus wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:52 amIIRC, Vezzra thought 2-themes should be the easiest (because only one should be a bit crippled or because getting next tier should be much difficult than getting many techs in different themes, or something like that), some think that plenty of options should be equally possible, and some think that single theme should be the easiest.
Vezzra thinks that there should be a range from focusing only on very few themes (3 would be the absolute minimum IMO), and researching all of those very "deep", to actually trying to get into quite a number of themes, but only get really "deep" into maybe one of them.

The "easiest" things should be something in the middle of the extremes, while the extreme options (only a very few or a lot themes) should be the hard, although probably the more exotic/interesting options.

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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#19 Post by Vezzra »

The Silent One wrote: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:15 am
Oberlus wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:25 pmBecause I'm wary that an increasing cost for second and further themes can be seen as an artificial and awkward form to control players' choices.
Just what I think exactly.
Me too.

Which is why I (again and again) want to suggest a simple cost increase that just depends on the number of already researched techs. Of course we'll have to see if that really works, but IMO that should provide a simple and elegant way of preventing the player from researching the entire tech tree. Rightly balanced, that should enable the average empire to, let's say, get 20/25/30% of the entire tree in a typical game. How "deep" or "broad" they want to go into the tree is entirely up to the player.

In theory a player could go for all themes/trunks, but that won't be a very viable strategy, because in this case they will only get to the lower tiers of each theme, while giving them a lot of redundant tech, which will be a too serious disadvantage to be a viable strategy.

If that doesn't work, we can still try for more complicated approaches, but I strongly suggest to start simple. If a simple mechanic like that does the job, there is no point in going crazy with more complicated solutions.

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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#20 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:56 pmVezzra thinks that there should be a range from focusing only on very few themes (3 would be the absolute minimum IMO), and researching all of those very "deep", to actually trying to get into quite a number of themes, but only get really "deep" into maybe one of them.
Currently there are 5 themes, 3 themes is more then half. I'm not really in favor of having a whole bunch of themes, as the should be fairly broad strategies.
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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#21 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:12 pmCurrently there are 5 themes, 3 themes is more then half. I'm not really in favor of having a whole bunch of themes, as the should be fairly broad strategies.
The original idea wasn't to have a theme/trunk match a strategy, but to compose your strategy from a selection of themes/trunks. So, one strategy would be to work with trunks A, C, and F. Another, completely different aproach would be pursuing B, D, E, H and M. Of course only a subset of all possible combination would give you viable strategies, but making it so that selecting a theme more or less equals selecting your strategy is far too restricting IMO.

I definitely have been thinking to have at least a dozen themes/trunks (preferrably more), only a subset of which would be affordable to start researching at the start of the game anyway. Not all themes have to be "created equal", so to speak, there can (and IMO should) be themes that are quite exotic and offer access to very unique strategies. Access to the more powerful/exotic themes/trunks can be gated by certain requirements, classic example the Psionic trunk can only be researched if you have a telepathic species, a "Dark Matter" theme/trunk would require access to the "Dark Matter" strategic resource, and so on.

I very much prefer broad tech trees to deep ones, the latter is too much of a predefined path the player has to follow. And if you want a tech tree where the player can't research everything, you definitely need a really huge one anyway.

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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#22 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:38 pmI definitely have been thinking to have at least a dozen themes/trunks (preferrably more), only a subset of which would be affordable to start researching at the start of the game anyway. Not all themes have to be "created equal", so to speak, there can (and IMO should) be themes that are quite exotic and offer access to very unique strategies. Access to the more powerful/exotic themes/trunks can be gated by certain requirements, classic example the Psionic trunk can only be researched if you have a telepathic species, a "Dark Matter" theme/trunk would require access to the "Dark Matter" strategic resource, and so on.
So this is looking much more like a functional than a themed system. Which I wouldn't be opposed to. A functional system would definitely be fairly intuitive.
Vezzra wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:38 pmI very much prefer broad tech trees to deep ones, the latter is too much of a predefined path the player has to follow. And if you want a tech tree where the player can't research everything, you definitely need a really huge one anyway.
I mean a somewhat pe-defined path isn't necessarily bad if you aren't too restricted in your choice.
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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#23 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:13 pmSo this is looking much more like a functional than a themed system. Which I wouldn't be opposed to. A functional system would definitely be fairly intuitive.
Hm, I'm starting to suspect that we just mean/understand different things when we talk about "themed" and "functional".

I've already tried to explain how I perceive "themed" and "functional" in the other thread, but maybe I'll try to explain it here too, hopefully that helps clearing up some of our differences:

A "functional" tech tree in my opinion is a tech tree where you design the research paths or "branches" strictly by application ("function"): you have a branch for planetary garrison tech, one for detection, for stealth, for weapons, for shields, etc. The current tech tree is mostly (not entirely) organized that way. All weapons are in one branch, so are all shields, all detection and stealth related techs, and so on.

What I mean whean I speak of a "themed" tech tree, is that one branch covers techs for a variety of applications or "functions", which are grouped together by the "theme". A "theme" would be e.g. the already repeatedly mentioned "Psionics". "Psionics" can be applied to a lot of applications in quite different fields: offensive/defensive systems, effective administration of your empire, influencing your citizens, mind control, diplomacy, espionage, heck, maybe even detection (sensing nearby minds, even if your sensors pick up nothing because your enemy uses advanced stealth). Shaping asteroids into ships is probably a not very likely application of Psionics (unless you want to make Psionics the one theme to rule them all ;)).

Another theme could be "High Energy Physics". All kind of energy weapons and shields would fit here, the energy hull line, manipulation of stars (collapsing a star into a black hole maybe?). Applications of High energy Physics in the field of diplomacy would probably be a bit far fetched.

My impression is that what you understand by "themed" is what in some space 4X games are race/empire specific tech trees. Where each empire/race you can choose as a player has it's own tech tree, and those tech trees can be quite distinct in their strength and weaknesses, are an important factor to distinguish the different races/empires, and also determine the strategies you employ when playing a certain empire/race.

That is a viable approach, it's just not what I had in mind, and not what I'd prefer. Still better than what we have now, though.
I mean a somewhat pe-defined path isn't necessarily bad if you aren't too restricted in your choice.
Well, unless we don't want to end up with something impossible to balance reasonably, a certain degree of restriction to what paths are possible is unavoidable. I just like to give the player as much flexibility and variety as possible. Effectively offering the player to choose one of 5 or 6 tech trees, maybe with the option to pursue two instead of just one and making that also the choice between 5 or 6 viable strategies would certainly be better than what we have now, but I think my kind of "themed" approach offers even more (provided things really work like I envision them).

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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#24 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:29 pmWhat I mean whean I speak of a "themed" tech tree, is that one branch covers techs for a variety of applications or "functions", which are grouped together by the "theme". A "theme" would be e.g. the already repeatedly mentioned "Psionics". "Psionics" can be applied to a lot of applications in quite different fields: offensive/defensive systems, effective administration of your empire, influencing your citizens, mind control, diplomacy, espionage, heck, maybe even detection (sensing nearby minds, even if your sensors pick up nothing because your enemy uses advanced stealth). Shaping asteroids into ships is probably a not very likely application of Psionics (unless you want to make Psionics the one theme to rule them all ;)).
I'd give psionics monster taming, and breeding. It would make sense to me. Wait, what have I just done?

Okay I think I am starting to get your meaning. So say instead of a weapons and shields category, you would have a physics and chemistry category? I could see that. Although I will say I'd try to keep the numbers down to a reasonable amount to avoid there being too many choices or having to spent too much time hunting down the technology you want.
Vezzra wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:29 pmAnother theme could be "High Energy Physics". All kind of energy weapons and shields would fit here, the energy hull line, manipulation of stars (collapsing a star into a black hole maybe?). Applications of High energy Physics in the field of diplomacy would probably be a bit far fetched.
If you don't understand high-energy physics well enough how are you even gong to know how to talk to the species of nuclear-matter creatures from the surface of a neutron star? BTW I need to get back to species proposals. The natives have gotten a little bare since more species were made playable.
Vezzra wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:29 pmMy impression is that what you understand by "themed" is what in some space 4X games are race/empire specific tech trees. Where each empire/race you can choose as a player has it's own tech tree, and those tech trees can be quite distinct in their strength and weaknesses, are an important factor to distinguish the different races/empires, and also determine the strategies you employ when playing a certain empire/race.
That is pretty close to what I am thinking. With the main difference that your initial, choice doesn't "lock" you into a particular theme, and you can choose one or another. So you can have all sorts of combinations of species and themes. I could play as Egassem with a Mechanical theme or Humans with a Crystalline theme or Scylior with a Cybernetic theme or Cray with a Biotechnology theme, just to throw some possibilities out there.
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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#25 Post by labgnome »

While I have been enjoying the more general discussion, I do want to get back to the original topic. So I am going to make an alternative proposal to my initial one after considering the feedback I've gotten. This proposal will also take into account troops and supply mechanics to hopefully develop a unique expansion strategy for each theme.
ThemeAdequate PlanetsPoor PlanetsHostile PlanetsRange BoostTroops
BiotechnologyTechTerraformingTerraformingLogistics Focus + BoostCloning
CrystallineTechSubsurface TunnelsNoneSupply BoostsLaser Guns
CyberneticTechTech + ExobotsTech + ExobotsBuildingCyborg Troop Pod
EnergyTechNoneNoneStockpiling + Fuel BoostTroop Shields
MechanicalTechBuildingBuildingBuildingExoframe Troop Pod
Going a bit more in-depth perhaps something like the following:

Biotechnology
  • Habitability Tech: Planetary Ecology.
  • Terraforming: can be done on outposts, mid-game tech, possible tech-based time reduction bonuses.
  • Population Special: Gaia special.
  • Logistics Focus: early game tech, further tech/policy boosts.
  • Clone Troops: pop-based defensive troop bonus, possibly tied to pop-boost. Several techs: Cloning Pods -> Industrial Cloning Centers -> Rapid Cloning
Crystalline
  • Habitability Tech: Subterranean Habitation.
  • Habitability Special: Subsurface Tunnels, increases planetary habitability, building project like terraforming, habitability boost possibly tech-based
  • Asteroid Colonization: Astroliths, get asteroids as good, cannot colonize normal planets. Unlocked at or near to asteroid shipyard tech.
  • Supply: passive tech/policy boosts. Laser Beacons -> Orbital Laser Beacons -> Deep-Space Laser Beacons
  • Laser Guns: flat bonus to defensive troops and bonus to troop pod part. Several techs: Laser Artillery -> Laser Rifles -> Laser Pistols
Cybernetic
  • Habitability Techs: probably already covered.
  • Exobots: early game tech. Changed to get all planet types as adequate.
  • Exobot Disassembly: late game tech. Removes exobot population so the planet can be colonized by another species.
  • Supply Building: Supply Depot, early game tech. Supply
  • Troop Pod Part: Cyborg Troop Pod. Lower cost, but consumes more troops than Exoframe troop pod. Tech also boosts defensive troops.
Energy
  • Habitability Tech: Environmental Shielding, early game tech.
  • Stockpiling: stockpiling focus, plus stockpiling bonus techs and building.
  • Fuel: fuel-range boosting techs. Combined with stockpiling and stargate, potentially makes for a viable distributed empire.
  • Stargate building.
  • Troop Shields: flat defensive troop bonus. Several Techs: Mobile Shield Generator -> Personal Shield Generator -> Micro Shield Generator
Mechanical
  • Habitability Tech: Habitation Pods, early game, +4 population on adequate planets (non-stacking)
  • Habitability Building: Environmental Dome, mid game tech, +3 population on good, adequate and poor planets.
  • Habitability Building: Arcology, late game tech, +4 population on good, adequate, poor and hostile planets
  • Supply Building: Space Elevator, sets planetary supply to 3.
  • Supply Building: Docking Ring, requires space elevator, adds +2 planetary supply.
  • Exoframe Troop Pod: Higher cost but consumes fewer troops than Exoframe troop pod. Instead of having 4 troops, adds +2 to troop strength of part.
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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#26 Post by Vezzra »

Labgnome is right, the discussion about fundamentals of a themed tech tree design somewhat derailed this thread. I've opened a dedicated thread for this discussion here, so this thread can again focus on its actual topic. I've posted my further replies on the fundamentals discussion in the new thread, everyone who wants to follow up on that discussion please do so there too.

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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#27 Post by Ophiuchus »

labgnome wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:35 pm ...
That was a lot of ideas. I see also some gaps you can maybe fill in.
Are you imagining the supply/hab techs to be non-stackable across themes? Do the supply/hab buildings have local effect? Also the things you write about troops do not exist in freeorion (no troops consumption). Astroliths looks like an asset everybody will want.
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Re: Tech Themes: Exobot Rework, Terraforming and Growth Boosts

#28 Post by labgnome »

Ophiuchus wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:52 pm
labgnome wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2019 11:35 pm ...
That was a lot of ideas. I see also some gaps you can maybe fill in.
Are you imagining the supply/hab techs to be non-stackable across themes? Do the supply/hab buildings have local effect? Also the things you write about troops do not exist in freeorion (no troops consumption). Astroliths looks like an asset everybody will want.
I am personally seeing them as being non-stackable across themes and the supply/hab buildings as being local. Asteroids are not super great population wise, and Astroliths can possibly get them as adequate instead if thy are too powerful getting them as good.
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