Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

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Ophiuchus
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Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

#1 Post by Ophiuchus »

I was thinking before how to differentiate weapons a bit more.

One such thing could be grouping of targets. So, e.g. given instead of 1-shot 12 damage laser one could have at the same cost a 3-shot 6 damage pulse laser. The three shots would hit the same target. So against a 0-shield target it would do 18 damage (vs 12), against a 3-shield target the same 9 damage, against a 5-shield target only 3 (vs 7) etc.

One way to implement grouping of shots to a single target would be adding an optional groupId/preseed to the *NumberOf conditions. Using the same seed for randomly selecting a target would actually select the same target (same list of targets, same targeting condition).
Using the ship id as preseed, both shots of the pulse laser would hit the same target.

Note that the FOCS scripter could use another source for the grouping/preseed, so with the right battle scanner all weapons of e.g. a ship could be hitting the same target.

Is that a good idea?
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Oberlus
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Re: Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

#2 Post by Oberlus »

The multi-shot stuff is indeed a good idea. Very helpful to differentiate weapons and allow for tailored strategies weapon-vs-defence (things like "so you got nice shields, you bastard energy-holic... time to change to this humongous mass driver cannon").

The other thing I don't know if it is necessary. At least for starters, we could use mechanics similar to how flak cannon work and just let different shots to land on different targets.

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Vezzra
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Re: Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

#3 Post by Vezzra »

Oberlus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:47 amThe other thing I don't know if it is necessary. At least for starters, we could use mechanics similar to how flak cannon work and just let different shots to land on different targets.
This.

While interesting, the concept is too close to the already existing ROF mechanic, the only difference would be that the multiple shots can't be fired at separate targets. Aside from that, everything else is here: you can script weapons which have a higher total damage output, but broken up into several shots (which is weaker against shields) vs. weapons with lower total damage output, but concentrated in one shot (more effective against shields).

Sidenote: when coming up with different weapon systems, that could be used as a way to differentiate between the "types" of weapons, instead of introducing addditional special mechanics like "does more damage against shields", "does more damage against armor" etc.

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Re: Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

#4 Post by Ophiuchus »

Vezzra wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:50 pmthe only difference would be that the multiple shots can't be fired at separate targets.
You make this sound like it is a small difference, but i think ability to concentrate shots is a game changer.

I do not care much if my ships are damaged, I care about losses. I usually design ships around on how many shots they can stand/how many shots they need to take the enemy out, because spreading the damage means i have no losses, loosing no PP.

On a single weapon the grouping gives the ability to differentiate the effectiveness against enemies with or without shield without spreading the damage.

Regardless of the grouping ability we could add targeting low-shielded enemies first (probably provided by extra battle scanner part).
Combat targeting could also be a (hard to use) mechanism for concentrating fire on fewer targets.

I suggested the grouping feature because i thinks it should be quite easy to implement and is not really a new mechanic (if you understand how combat works this is straightforward).
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Re: Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

#5 Post by Oberlus »

If it is easy to implement, I see no reason for not going for it.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

#6 Post by Geoff the Medio »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:20 amOne way to implement grouping of shots to a single target would be adding an optional groupId/preseed to the *NumberOf conditions. Using the same seed for randomly selecting a target would actually select the same target (same list of targets, same targeting condition).
I think you can accomplish something quite similar using a sorting condition that picks just the max/min sortkey value, based on and a few properties of ships multiplied together and then passed into a mod function.

Alternatively, add a Hash function to FOCS, that takes an int or double or string and returns a predictable by randomly distributed, over possible values, different value based on the input. That could then be used with sorting NumberOf conditions to pick N objects from those that match the subcondition.

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Re: Feature: Same-ship targeting (via reusing seed for randomness)

#7 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:52 pmYou make this sound like it is a small difference, but i think ability to concentrate shots is a game changer.
Not really, IMO at least. If you want a concentrated shot, just use the standard weapon variant with ROF = 1. If you want multiple, but weaker shots, use the variant with ROF > 1.
On a single weapon the grouping gives the ability to differentiate the effectiveness against enemies with or without shield without spreading the damage.
Yes, and I'm not saying there is no additional variety here. In my eyes it's just not pronounced enough to warrant introducing another (sub-)mechanic.

If we add that, we'd have the "normal" ROF stat, and another "multiple shots" stat. I'm almost 100% sure there will be some confusion for players what's the difference between those. Not that that can't be explained of course, but it illustrates that this will make things more complex, and I just don't think it adds enough to the game to be worth that.

I don't have overly strong objections against it though. If you guys like the idea, by all means, go for it.

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