Themed tech categories (Help wanted)

For what's not in 'Top Priority Game Design'. Post your ideas, visions, suggestions for the game, rules, modifications, etc.

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#76 Post by Ophiuchus »

Vezzra wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:07 pm
labgnome wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:55 pmI know having branching themes was discussed, maybe psionics could be a branch off of energy?
Still forces you to pick/research energy to get to psionics, which in my book aren't really related things. This is something that needs to be avoided: to have to research through a bunch of stuff you're not interested in (at least, too much of it, we won't be able to avoid that completely all the time) just to get through something you want.
Agree, but that is already handled by the tier-tech mechanism (there is a way to each tech without having to research any other applicable tech)

If we have some kind of categorisation of techs there will always be categorization problems if you do not go fully atomic. And I think that cure (atomic functional branches) is worse than the original issue.
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#77 Post by Ophiuchus »

em3 wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:37 pm That being said I was assuming all the time, that you were actually designing the very thing that Vezzra described and that the 4-5 trunk system was merely a prototype or initial draft.

I haven't played in a while, but the idea of 10-20 themes was what appealed to me, instead of "choose your technology tree from these couple of alternatives".
Would you please clarify what you mean hear with theme here. Self-sufficient and composable themes like Oberlus suggested? That would be loads and loads and loads of techs. With ~unrestricted research I would think that would be a complete balancing nightmare.

Or did you mean lean functional themes like Vezzra suggested?
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#78 Post by em3 »

Replied in the fundamentals thread.
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#79 Post by Oberlus »

Vezzra wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:36 pmproject leads (currently Geoff, Dilvish and me)
I really miss Dilvish. He hasn't posted here or committed anything to github since Feb 2 (2019). :(

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#80 Post by Oberlus »

Call for brainstorming:

This is just an idea, not sure if it will get far.

Side themes unlocked by having two main themes (when you have unlocked tier 2 of Cybertec and tier 2 of Biotec, you get access to the tier 2 "Cybernetics" branch).

With 5 main themes (biotec, crystal, cybertec, energy, mech), we would need 10 of these double-side themes:
  1. Biotec-Crystal: ?
  2. Biotec-Cybertec: cybernetics, blending of flesh and metal, implants, cyborgs, non-bio weapons on bio hulls
  3. Biotec-Energy: ?
  4. Biotec-Mech: ?
  5. Crystal-Cybertec: ?
  6. Crystal-Energy: Void and Psionics stuff
  7. Crystal-Mech: ?
  8. Cybertec-Energy: ?
  9. Cybertec-Mech: Battletec (tm) stuff? Exobots?
  10. Energy-Mech: ?
Something similar with less side themes: we place the main themes in a ring in an arbitrary order and create a themeput withing each pair one "fusion" side theme. Would need 5 themes (so two I would need 2-3 more).

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#81 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:47 pm Call for brainstorming:

This is just an idea, not sure if it will get far.

Side themes unlocked by having two main themes (when you have unlocked tier 2 of Cybertec and tier 2 of Biotec, you get access to the tier 2 "Cybernetics" branch).

With 5 main themes (biotec, crystal, cybertec, energy, mech), we would need 10 of these double-side themes:
  1. Biotec-Crystal: ?
  2. Biotec-Cybertec: cybernetics, blending of flesh and metal, implants, cyborgs, non-bio weapons on bio hulls
  3. Biotec-Energy: ?
  4. Biotec-Mech: ?
  5. Crystal-Cybertec: ?
  6. Crystal-Energy: Void and Psionics stuff
  7. Crystal-Mech: ?
  8. Cybertec-Energy: ?
  9. Cybertec-Mech: Battletec (tm) stuff? Exobots?
  10. Energy-Mech: ?
Something similar with less side themes: we place the main themes in a ring in an arbitrary order and create a themeput withing each pair one "fusion" side theme. Would need 5 themes (so two I would need 2-3 more).
I think, not to throw too-much of a wrench into this, that you might have to re-evaluate the naming conventions of the themes. I'd re-name cybertech for sure, maybe to "digital", and make "cybertech" as as side theme, as cybertech and cybernetics seems a tad redundant to me. Maybe re-name also re-name "biotech" to something like "ecology". That way you could get something like this.
  1. Crystal+Digital: ?
  2. Crystal+Ecology: Geologial
  3. Crystal+Energy: Void
  4. Crystal+Mechanical: Miniaturization (nanotechnolgoy, picotechnolgy & femtotechnolgy)
  5. Digital+Ecology: Biotech
  6. Digital+Energy: Holographics?
  7. Digital+Mechanical: Robotics (Exobots)
  8. Ecology+Energy: Psionics
  9. Ecology+Mechanical: Cybertech
  10. Energy+Mechanical: Mega-Engineering
It might not be complete, but I think by re-contextualizing some of the themes we might be able to work something out.
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#82 Post by em3 »

labgnome wrote: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:42 pm [I think, not to throw too-much of a wrench into this, that you might have to re-evaluate the naming conventions of the themes. I'd re-name cybertech for sure, maybe to "digital", and make "cybertech" as as side theme, as cybertech and cybernetics seems a tad redundant to me. Maybe re-name also re-name "biotech" to something like "ecology".
Re-contextualizing is a good idea. Replacing "biotech" with "ecology"... not really.

Out of five proposed main trunks: biotec, crystal, cybertec, energy, mech... I would consider dropping the "tec" suffix, as it might be troublesome in translation.

I suggest naming trunks, by what the science is about: organisms, materials, computation, energy, and machinery.

Combinations:
  1. organic+material: Biomineral Symbiosis
  2. organic+computing: Neural Interfaces (brain chips, AR, VR, networking, brain enhancements)
  3. organic+energy: Bioenergetics (organisms enhanced with energy or energy-producing organisms)
  4. organic+machinery: Organic Engineering (using organic structures and concepts in mechanical engineering - like bone structure or muscle tissue, replacing or enhancing biological structures with implants, "dumb" cybernetics)
  5. material+computation: Crystallite Computers (usage of various minerals and crystals to enhance computation and data transfer)
  6. material+energy: ?
  7. material+machinery: Reinforced Machinery (usage of minerals and crystals to improve durability of machines)
  8. computation+energy: ?
  9. computation+machinery: Robotics? Mechatronics? (by all means, creation of robots, battle suits, drones, autonomous megastructures)
  10. energy+machinery: ?
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#83 Post by labgnome »

em3 wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:49 amI suggest naming trunks, by what the science is about: organisms, materials, computation, energy, and machinery.
You could go all-in and go for something like this:
  • Organic = Biology (organic hulls, resurrected species)
  • Materials = Chemistry (armor, asteroid hulls)
  • Computation = Information (robotic hulls)
  • Energy = Physics (shields, fuel, plasma weapons)
  • Machinery = Engineering (massive hulls, exobots)
Then you could get combinations like this:
  1. Biology+Chemistry = Medicine (pop boosts)
  2. Biology+Engineering = Cybernetics (troop boosts)
  3. Biology+Information = Ecology (monster taming & terraforming)
  4. Biology+Physics = Bioenergetics/Psionics (special techs for telepathic species)
  5. Chemistry+Engineering = Miniaturization/Nanotech (research boosts)
  6. Chemistry+Information = Psychology (influence boosts)
  7. Chemistry+Physics = Materials (laser weapons, neutronium armor)
  8. Engineering+Information = Mechatronics (production boosts)
  9. Engineering+Physics = Aerospace/Voidtech (flux hulls, "of the void" & blackshield techs)
  10. Information+Physics = Holographics (energy hulls)
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#84 Post by Oberlus »

em3 wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:49 amOut of five proposed main trunks: biotec, crystal, cybertec, energy, mech... I would consider dropping the "tec" suffix, as it might be troublesome in translation.

I suggest naming trunks, by what the science is about: organisms, materials, computation, energy, and machinery.
I like this.

Organic... Name is too tied to the organic metabolism. I want to theme it on any form of life (i.e. all metabolisms). So name should conserve the "bio", I think. Xenobiology or something like that.
Alternative, give each trunk some matabolism-related stuff: materials-lithic, organic-organic, machinery+computation-robotic.

Materials instead of Crystal. I like it.
Energy and Machinery. No changes here.

Computation. This change is more problematic.
It would convey algorithms, electronics, sheer processing power, quantum computing, AI...
In game stuff: boosts to research (several, including flat and pop-based), targetting parts, requirement for autonomous stuff of other trunks.
Problem here is it losses relevance compared to the other trunks, because this one no longer makes sense with weapons. So it becomes a side-theme in fact (and computation+machinery gets the militar part of "cybertec"). Which probably makes Machinery+Computation a must. Hmmm...

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#85 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:47 pm Alternative, give each trunk some matabolism-related stuff: materials-lithic, organic-organic, machinery+computation-robotic.
I like this idea.
  • Organic: Organic
  • Computation: Robotic
  • Materials: Lithic
  • Energy: Phototrophic
Computation. This change is more problematic.
It would convey algorithms, electronics, sheer processing power, quantum computing, AI...
In game stuff: boosts to research (several, including flat and pop-based), targetting parts, requirement for autonomous stuff of other trunks.
Problem here is it losses relevance compared to the other trunks, because this one no longer makes sense with weapons. So it becomes a side-theme in fact (and computation+machinery gets the militar part of "cybertec"). Which probably makes Machinery+Computation a must. Hmmm...
I mean you could have it only have the fighters/drones and possibly work with the theme. But that's just my take.
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#86 Post by labgnome »

So one thing that occurs to me is that maybe we are going about this the wrong way. Instead of trying to think of arbitrary combinations of the existing main themes we should bethinking of what extra themes we want to have first, then work out how they will relate to the other themes. Weather or not we go with 10 or 5 combination side-themes we are still trying to work around the existing main themes and not trying to think of what kind of side-themes we want to have.

So I will propose some side-themes that would be nice to have, regardless of synergy with the main themes.
  • Void - flux hulls and "of the void" stuff
  • Psionics - special stuff for telepaths
  • Ecology - for tamed monsters, terraforming and the gaia special
  • Automation - for Exobots? I have ideas on this topic.
  • Oppression - possibly for boosts and policies?
  • Cooperation - possibly for boosts and policies?
  • Megastructures - for megastructures
  • Ascension - for the tech victory
I was thinking that maybe having a certain number of themes researched to the certian tier could unlock most of the side themes, other side-themes could be unlocked by having special requirements met. For example:

Researching any one theme to the second tier could unlock Oppression and Cooperation.
Researching any two themes to the second tier could give you Void and Automation
Researching any three themes to the second tier could give you Megastructures
Having a telepathic species will give you Psionics
Having a metabolism special, monster nest or gaia special will give you Ecology
Researching any two themes to the sixth tier will give you Ascension.
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#87 Post by Oberlus »

Yes, I've dropped (at least for now) the combinations ideas. Only some made sense to me. So let's do those side themes that make sense and forget about weird design rules.
From your suggested side thermes, most seem to hold very few techs. I don't think they can make it.


In the recent days, I've decided to go ahead with the proposal that seems easier to develop, which in my case is the following:

Five main themes with weapons:
- Biotec: all nature, genetic, neural, biochemical, tiny biobots and biology-in-general stuff, and some psycology (population, slow terraforming, env. tolerance, stockpiling, happines-cooperation, planet stealth, troops, research, industry, influence).
- Cybertec: advanced electronics, computing, androids, AI, implants (industry, research), cyborgs (env. tolerance, troops), drones, signal processing (detection).
- Crystal: subterranean (planet space and stealth, industry), asteroid stuff (industry, supply/refuel, hulls, planet defense), crystal (sci-fi trope) stuff (weapons and telepathy for oppression and influence, like mind-control, adoctrination, hypnosis).
- Energy: force fields and particles (shields, energy weapons and hulls, research, detection), star stuff (supply, industry, research), abundance of energy (happiness, cooperation), perpetual supernova (galactic wonder).
- Mech: mega and orbital structures (planet space, supply), huge machinery (industry), industrial and oppressive architecture, huge hulls, orbital structures (planet space, supply)...
Each will have around 36 techs (6 per tier).
The best theme-combination ideas will be reflected as techs of a theme that require some tech or tier from another theme.

Void theme: void stuff, all of it OP but expensive and with some sizeable drawback: void bomb that everyone hates, planetary stealth with malus to population, void habitation with malus to happiness, Enclave of the Void with malus to population and happiness on the planet it is built, void generator (industry) with malus population on the planet it is built, and I don't know what drawbacks I can do for a weapon, a shield and a stealth part.
Not a side theme, but more like a bonus theme, can go well with any of the main themes. Unlocked mid-late game, has fewer tiers and techs per tier.

Ascension theme (from here and here): transcendence process, energy metabolism, best planet shields, tech victory.
Unlocked later game, even less tiers and techs per tier.

This proposal is the one that scares me less, I've been able to write down some stuff in a huge table. Once it is finished, I think I'll be able to undertake the harder (for me) task of trying smaller, more numerous themes.

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#88 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:17 amFrom your suggested side thermes, most seem to hold very few techs. I don't think they can make it.
Fair enough. Those were just meant to be starting points, and of course would need more filling-in.
Void theme: void stuff, all of it OP but expensive and with some sizeable drawback: void bomb that everyone hates, planetary stealth with malus to population, void habitation with malus to happiness, Enclave of the Void with malus to population and happiness on the planet it is built, void generator (industry) with malus population on the planet it is built, and I don't know what drawbacks I can do for a weapon, a shield and a stealth part.
Not a side theme, but more like a bonus theme, can go well with any of the main themes. Unlocked mid-late game, has fewer tiers and techs per tier.
I think I like the concept of bonus themes more than side themes. I'd not worry about drawbacks for ship-parts, and say that you don't have to make everything "bad". FYI: Enclave of the Void is supposed to already have a drawback, in that ships traveling near it disrupts its effect. Will the flux hulls still go in here?
This proposal is the one that scares me less, I've been able to write down some stuff in a huge table. Once it is finished, I think I'll be able to undertake the harder (for me) task of trying smaller, more numerous themes.
I'd like to ask that If you are gong to branch out, keep Ecology and Psionics in mind as possible bonus themes.
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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#89 Post by Oberlus »

labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:51 pmThose were just meant to be starting points, and of course would need more filling-in.
I'm looking forward, new ideas are always welcome.
I'd not worry about drawbacks for ship-parts, and say that you don't have to make everything "bad".
I want the drawbacks to allow for situations in which late-game Void stuff is not the-best-choice-hands-down.
FYI: Enclave of the Void is supposed to already have a drawback, in that ships traveling near it disrupts its effect.
Nope. EotV is unhindered. It is another building, Collective Network, unlocked by Unified Consciousness, who has the requirement of still surroundings. But that is not the same than a drawback. I want those drawbacks to allow for situations in which the late game stuff from Void theme is not the-best-choice-hands-down.
Will the flux hulls still go in here?
I never paid proper attention to this. What are or would be the distinctive characteristics of a flux hull line?
Ecology and Psionics as possible bonus themes
Maybe Psionics, if we get new mechanics for funcy stuff like disabling or controlling enemy ships. Otherwise, I would put that stuff in Crystal (if it needs it to be as fat as the other themes) or Void. Ecology, I don't know what could be late-game OP techs for such theme. Ideas? Plus it would strip Bio of many stuff. I don't see it.

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Re: Themed tech cateogries (Help wanted)

#90 Post by labgnome »

Oberlus wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:43 pmNope. EotV is unhindered. It is another building, Collective Network, unlocked by Unified Consciousness, who has the requirement of still surroundings. But that is not the same than a drawback. I want those drawbacks to allow for situations in which the late game stuff from Void theme is not the-best-choice-hands-down.
Maybe I am mis-remembering but I thought that was the enclave's "thing",or at least was at one point, they might have switched it up more recently.

One Idea for Enclave of the Void, from way back, was to have it earlier in the tech tree and work more like the Industrial Center. So the bonus starts small but you can upgrade it.
I never paid proper attention to this. What are or would be the distinctive characteristics of a flux hull line?
Small and really fast. The opposite of the massive hulls, that Mech gets. I was also thinking that the habitability boosts for self-sustaining metabolism could go here.
Maybe Psionics, if we get new mechanics for funcy stuff like disabling or controlling enemy ships. Otherwise, I would put that stuff in Crystal (if it needs it to be as fat as the other themes) or Void. Ecology, I don't know what could be late-game OP techs for such theme. Ideas? Plus it would strip Bio of many stuff. I don't see it.
I namely want a separate theme for tame monsters and organic ships. I was thinking "ecology"might be a nice place to put it. The Gaia special is really the only OP thing I can think-of right now for it, and your probably right about it belonging with Biotechnology.

Maybe the monster domestication could go into psionics? I think once we get influence projects figured out there will be enough material for a Psionics theme. If there are going to be "influence units" I could see telepaths getting their own ones. I do have some ideas for telepathic-specific boosts.
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