Panoramic (3D) starmap

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noelte
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#16 Post by noelte »

My opinion for this whole thing is this, BTW: If we'd do that, we would have eye-candy, but it would be difficult for a player to play with this kind of map. After all, since we already use 3D, we could also use a real 3D-map. And what I heard of MOOIII, the 3D-map was not a good idea.
A 3d-map seems to be a good idea (and is more realistic :-P), but while playing, you need a simple and clear way of map interaction.
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Daveybaby
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#17 Post by Daveybaby »

Yoghurt wrote:No, it won't. A "wrapping 2D plane" will give you the surface of a torus (doughnut). The S_2 (surface of a sphere) has non-zero curvature, and cannot be transformed into flat 2D. This is the reason why maps are always distorted (just look how huge Alaska seems to be), only a globe can give you the correct image of earth, for example.
I'm aware of that, but as i said in a previous post, there is no significant gameplay difference.
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#18 Post by Yoghurt »

Ah, OK. I thought you meant that if we do 2D-wrapping the player could choose whether he sees the map as 3D or 2D.

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Mystiqq
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#19 Post by Mystiqq »

How is the gameplay effect for a wrap-around 2-d starmap significantly any different to that for a starmap projected onto the surface of a sphere?
Mainly i was after the "immersion" part, not sure if its part of "gameplay", since im just a dumb (wannabe) artist . :)

My strength sure as hell isnt in words, especially in english ones, so give me a break. :oops:

Doing the wrap around definitely wont give the same immersive effect that we would have from a 3d one. If we decide to have 2d all the way, we could just as well leave it what its now, but i really would like to have the 3d one... :)

I can imagine new player seeing the wraparound and thinking "why the hell does this work like this.." or something like that.
If we'd do that, we would have eye-candy, but it would be difficult for a player to play with this kind of map.
How would it be difficult? People that play these kind of games cant be dumbest gamers.
And what I heard of MOOIII, the 3D-map was not a good idea.
MOO3 had 3d-map? I need to see that...
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#20 Post by Obiwan »

Nice idea Mystiqq, but there seem to me to be some major problems.

North Star

Players View

South Star

Imagine the above situation on 'sphere starmap'.
Best route from North Star to South is directly through the players position. Since we cant do this in the game a ship must travel around the circumpherance of the sphere.
Traveling in a strait line will bring you back to your starting point. This would destroy the illusion of reality for me.

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Mystiqq
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#21 Post by Mystiqq »

Obviously, since its a sphere.. but i dont understand what you mean. Its as realistical as stars in a flat plane, just different "layout".

I already know that this 3d starmap wont happen but at least i tryed, but i do hope this "constellation" thing would be possible to implement. Maps in these kind of games have felt always little too "random"... or something like that.

Perhaps we could provide even the "wrap around" as option in map generation? If theres any need for it.
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#22 Post by Daveybaby »

Mystiqq wrote:Doing the wrap around definitely wont give the same immersive effect that we would have from a 3d one. If we decide to have 2d all the way, we could just as well leave it what its now, but i really would like to have the 3d one... :)
I dont have any problem with a 3D projection, at all. Its just given a choice i would definitely prefer normal 2D maps over the 3D sphere (if we could only have one or the other) because the 3D sphere projection youre pretty much limited to 1 galaxy shape, whereas with 2D you can have square, cluster, ring, spiral etc. Hence my suggestion for a wraparound 2D map which has most of the attributes of the 3D sphere but would be a lot easier to implement alongside the usual 2D maps.

I'd actually like to see the option for 3D galaxies. While Tyreth's concerns are valid, i dont think it would be impossible to come up with something workable. Modding FO to do this (post 1.0) would be an ideal way develop a new twist on game - so it would be nice if some of the groundwork was put in from the start - i.e. all stellar coordinates and derived calculations being 3D - just initially set the Z axis to zero.
MOO3 had 3d-map? I need to see that...
Nah... you dont. Really.
Obiwan wrote:Traveling in a strait line will bring you back to your starting point. This would destroy the illusion of reality for me.
Weirdly enough, this is how some people theorise that the universe actually works - i.e. what we we consider to be 3D space is actually curved around a 4th dimension, and if we pick a direction and travel in it long enough we will eventually end up where we started.
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#23 Post by Yoghurt »

Mystiqq wrote:Perhaps we could provide even the "wrap around" as option in map generation? If theres any need for it.
I would also second that we wrap the map, especially since we use starlanes, which reduce the map to something like 1.3 dimesions in average (rough estimate) (If every systen would have one lane coming in and one coming out, we would have a purely 1D map, you get the picture)

If we made the map scrollable and let each player start "at the center" of his view, I think that might be a good idea; but only gametesting can tell.

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I think I get it

#24 Post by guiguibaah »

Ah, I see - As to Obiwan's question, here's how it would look...


Take a blank piece of paper and with a pencil, draw 30 stars on it. Now take that blank piece of paper, and curve it so it becomes a sphere. You would now be looking at a space "globe". Drop a tiny tiny camera inside the globe, and that is what you would see in the real game. It is still a 2d map, but it gives off an illusion of a third dimension. It can work because stars only extend off into two planes.


This would not work if it was a 3d map (if stars extended off into three planes) btw.


What ObiWan and myself would be concerned about in this wraparound model would be if there were any wormholes, or starlanes that are extra long. You would not see where that starlane attaches to from your perspective.

This is how to picture it. You take your little paper globe of stars and with a needle and thread, sew a string from one star on the surface of the globe - through the center of the globe - until it pokes out on the opposite end. You now have a situation where someone could sneak up on you because you didn't scroll 180 degrees to check if there was a fleet massing at the other end.


You could go without wormholes, or any long starlanes, since the terrirtory you have to defend has no natural borders - as opposed to a flat 2d map, where you can safely tuck away your outer colonies in one of the galaxy spirals.
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#25 Post by Obiwan »

The constalation , sector idea is something I really like alot.
I want to deal with areas of space in what ever form they take.
This is why I wouldnt choose the wrap around option myself.
I like the idea of sparse galactic pariphory and a dense galctic centre.

I cant quite remember, but didnt Galactic Civilizations have a wraparound 2D map.

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If given time...

#26 Post by guiguibaah »

I'm sure it could be a "map option" ... You have galactic spiral, ring, cluster, etc... I'm sure you could also have "spehroid" as an option. It's basically a repeating map on the X and Y planes anyway.
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Re: I think I get it

#27 Post by Yoghurt »

guiguibaah wrote:Take a blank piece of paper and with a pencil, draw 30 stars on it. Now take that blank piece of paper, and curve it so it becomes a sphere
That's impossible! See me previous posts.

noelte
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#28 Post by noelte »

lol, my thoughts exactly, but i could resist! ;-)
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#29 Post by Obiwan »

Gota be very stretchy paper :)

Just thinking : Cubical mapping might be easier. No distortion .
Would it be discernable with an orthagraphic viewpoint.
Sky boxes are sometimes like that but they arnt ment to be scrutanized.

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#30 Post by Daveybaby »

Melt the paper with a blowtorch first. Be careful not to put the blowtorch on too high a heat, or the paper will get too runny.
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