0.5 roadmap

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Vezzra
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0.5 roadmap

#1 Post by Vezzra »

0.4.10 is finally out, so we can turn to new horizons - 0.5!

First, some post release cleanup: I've renamed the "post release" milestone to "v0.5" (as we already know what the version of the next release is going to be, so we can skip the step where we name the milestone for the next release just "next release"). I've removed all issues and PRs that had been assigned to "post release" from the milestone, as only those mandatory for a release should be assigned to its milestone.

Please re-assign all issues/PRs you think should be considered mandatory for the next release to the "v0.5" milestone.

Next, we need to decide what 0.5 should encompass. Government and Influence as new resource type are already in master, the question is, do we already consider this enough for a very first introduction of these new elements, or do we want a bit more? Personally I think the new Influence resource needs a bit more fleshing out, or more things you can use it for. One fundamental use that's planned is using Influence as upkeep for colonies (and for other things like buildings and ships, but that can and probably should come later), this I think should be already included in 0.5.

For that we also need sufficient means for the player to produce Influence, so, like with the other resources, we need an Influence focus, and Influence related techs, buildings and specials that help increase Influence production.

But that's only my opinion, others might prefer to only get a very basic first version of the new elements, so we can get the next release out faster (including the stuff I propose above will mean a significantly longer release cycle of course).

Then there might be other things you guys want to get into 0.5.

Please share your suggestions and comments. :D

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#2 Post by Ophiuchus »

So the list of topics for 0.5 I plan to work on
  • One source for values for game, encyclopedia, sitreps, AI (in the works #3000) - UPDATE mostly working, needs polishing
  • four combat bouts and content scaling (if no contrary evidence #2908) - UPDATE: DONE
  • working on total damage estimation, especially UI (necessary because of targeting)
  • combat stealth rework
  • a monster balance pass (necessary because of targeting)
  • combat ranges
  • stealth detection rework (needs a lot of discussion, so not sure what will get implemented)
Last edited by Ophiuchus on Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Look, ma... four combat bouts!

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#3 Post by Oberlus »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:53 pm Government and Influence as new resource type are already in master, the question is, do we already consider this enough for a very first introduction of these new elements, or do we want a bit more? Personally I think the new Influence resource needs a bit more fleshing out, or more things you can use it for. One fundamental use that's planned is using Influence as upkeep for colonies (and for other things like buildings and ships, but that can and probably should come later), this I think should be already included in 0.5.

For that we also need sufficient means for the player to produce Influence, so, like with the other resources, we need an Influence focus, and Influence related techs, buildings and specials that help increase Influence production.
I agree. Influence and policies are the main addition of 0.5, and it needs more stuff.
Currently it only has the single source of 1 IP/turn at capital, and a few policies to sink those points.
IMO, it needs, at least:
- Influence upkeep for colonies, or maybe better for population (depending on if we want to balance one way or the other wide vs tall empires).
- More policies: maybe some good ideas in the Policy Cards Jumble thread; and some, or many, current tech effects should be converted to policies (i.e. the tech unlocks the policy).
- Influence upkeep for policies: either they consume some IP from the "stockpile" every turn , or they reduce the empire's IP output per turn.
- Mechanics for "lack of IP to pay upkeep": when there is no IPs to pay the whole upkeep, what happens to policies in effect (all of them stop? first the most expensive? or they activate an extra malus?) and/or colonies (lower happiness seems good and would allow to not touch policies).

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#4 Post by Vezzra »

Ophiuchus wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:38 pmstealth detection rework (needs a lot of discussion, so not sure what will get implemented)
The stealth-detection mechanics have been an ongoing issue since basically forever. Nothing that has actually been tried so far (by having been actually implemented) worked (which have been two approaches: the original one compared detection range of the "detector" against the stealth rating of the "detectee", resulting in you seeing the opponent the farther away the more your detection range surpassed their stealth; and the current "binary" all-or-nothing approach), all of them had serious issues which essentially made them useless/unplayable.

The suggestions and discussions about detection/stealth have been numerous and lengthy, and we have yet to come up with a really good idea. You can find the last major (inconclusive) discussion about this topic here.

Point is, detection/stealth is a huge topic/challenge all by itself, and while I think it's certainly good if people work on it, it's beyond the scope of 0.5. 0.5 has already one huge thing (Influence and related mechanics), I don't want to add another "behemoth" (game-design-wise) to that release cycle. I don't want to introduce what in the Dwarf-Fortress-verse is known as "The Big Wait"... ;)

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#5 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:53 pm Next, we need to decide what 0.5 should encompass. Government and Influence as new resource type are already in master, the question is, do we already consider this enough for a very first introduction of these new elements, or do we want a bit more? Personally I think the new Influence resource needs a bit more fleshing out, or more things you can use it for. One fundamental use that's planned is using Influence as upkeep for colonies (and for other things like buildings and ships, but that can and probably should come later), this I think should be already included in 0.5.
I know that influence projects are an idea that has been put forward I started a topic on it a while back over here, so maybe it would be pertinent to re-visit the idea.

I would also say that influence upkeep for ships has been a major selling point for the idea so I would include ship upkeep along with colony upkeep.
For that we also need sufficient means for the player to produce Influence, so, like with the other resources, we need an Influence focus, and Influence related techs, buildings and specials that help increase Influence production.
Oberlus wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:47 amI agree. Influence and policies are the main addition of 0.5, and it needs more stuff.
I have started a topic here about the subject.
- Mechanics for "lack of IP to pay upkeep": when there is no IPs to pay the whole upkeep, what happens to policies in effect (all of them stop? first the most expensive? or they activate an extra malus?) and/or colonies (lower happiness seems good and would allow to not touch policies).
I would go for unhappiness, and maybe loss of colonies if severe enough.
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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#6 Post by Vezzra »

As this thread is about what we want to focus on for 0.5, I'd ask everyone to resist the temptation to start discussing the suggested ideas right here. The thread would become confusing rather quickly.

I've moved the posts that started to discuss the various ideas about what to do with influence and related mechanics to a separate thread on the Other game design forum. Please continue the discussion there.

Edit: Labgnomes post above is a good example. They created dedicated threads to discuss the ideas there, and just put links here. I think that's a good procedure.

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#7 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:27 am As this thread is about what we want to focus on for 0.5, I'd ask everyone to resist the temptation to start discussing the suggested ideas right here. The thread would become confusing rather quickly.
In that case what about missiles? If it's not too much. I know there is a focus-only implementation and that at least some work has been done to further enable them, but I don't know how far any of that got.
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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#8 Post by labgnome »

Also: rename happiness to stability. We've been talking about it long enough.
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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#9 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:52 am Also: rename happiness to stability. We've been talking about it long enough.
Very much seconded! :D

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#10 Post by Vezzra »

At yesterdays online voice chat meeting, the consensus we reached about what the main focus of 0.5 should at least encompass is the following:
  • A first simple model/mechanic of "species ethics", meaning that species will like/dislike certain policies. So, when you decide on what policies to adopt/de-adopt you need to take into consideration the species setup of your empire.
  • Stuff that's needed to provide proper means of Influence production (Influence focus, related techs, buildings, specials).
  • Influence maintenance costs for colonies.
  • Consequences of an IP deficit (otherwise the above point would be irrelevant).
That doesn't mean of course that there won't be other things in 0.5 (as usual it will depend very much on what people will actually work on), but these things should be the main focus.

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#11 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:10 pm At yesterdays online voice chat meeting, the consensus we reached about what the main focus of 0.5 should at least encompass is the following:
  • A first simple model/mechanic of "species ethics", meaning that species will like/dislike certain policies. So, when you decide on what policies to adopt/de-adopt you need to take into consideration the species setup of your empire.
I think that someone from that conversation should start a new topic on "species ethics" so it can be discussed in the forum. I am especially curious about how it is different from or similar to "species values" already proposed here.
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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#12 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:24 pmI think that someone from that conversation should start a new topic on "species ethics" so it can be discussed in the forum. I am especially curious about how it is different from or similar to "species values" already proposed here.
Calling the idea of having species like/dislike certain policies "species ethics" is actually only my idea, we didn't use that term in our discussion at the online voice chat meeting. And the entire idea is pretty much only that - have species like/dislike certain policies, to make choosing/deciding on policies more interesting, and having more interesting consequences.

The proposals in the thread you linked to go far beyond that, something we'll eventually get to and replace (or probably more accurately: incorporate) the simple "species ethics" I mentioned with later. But for 0.5, something simple should be sufficient.

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#13 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:53 am
labgnome wrote: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:24 pmI think that someone from that conversation should start a new topic on "species ethics" so it can be discussed in the forum. I am especially curious about how it is different from or similar to "species values" already proposed here.
Calling the idea of having species like/dislike certain policies "species ethics" is actually only my idea, we didn't use that term in our discussion at the online voice chat meeting. And the entire idea is pretty much only that - have species like/dislike certain policies, to make choosing/deciding on policies more interesting, and having more interesting consequences.

The proposals in the thread you linked to go far beyond that, something we'll eventually get to and replace (or probably more accurately: incorporate) the simple "species ethics" I mentioned with later. But for 0.5, something simple should be sufficient.
Well of course we would use a simplified version. I was mainly interested in incorporating the idea of values/categories for species that match to ideals/categories for policies. I think that would provide a good framework for players to make judgments about policy selection, and for programmers to set the system up; as opposed to randomly assigning likes and dislikes to all the species for all the policies.
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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#14 Post by Vezzra »

labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:38 amI was mainly interested in incorporating the idea of values/categories for species that match to ideals/categories for policies. I think that would provide a good framework for players to make judgments about policy selection, and for programmers to set the system up; as opposed to randomly assigning likes and dislikes to all the species for all the policies.
Well, of course. If/once we introduce a value/ideals mechanic, assigning that to species and policies and thereby determining what policies species like/dislike would most definitely replace any direct/manual assignment of liking/disliking certain policies to species.

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Re: 0.5 roadmap

#15 Post by labgnome »

Vezzra wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:24 pm
labgnome wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:38 amI was mainly interested in incorporating the idea of values/categories for species that match to ideals/categories for policies. I think that would provide a good framework for players to make judgments about policy selection, and for programmers to set the system up; as opposed to randomly assigning likes and dislikes to all the species for all the policies.
Well, of course. If/once we introduce a value/ideals mechanic, assigning that to species and policies and thereby determining what policies species like/dislike would most definitely replace any direct/manual assignment of liking/disliking certain policies to species.
I personally would like to see the mechanic come first. With values/ideals as a foundation I think we are in a much more solid place to build from. For now values/ideals could directly effect stability, instead of effecting opinion and then having opinion effect stability.
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