races

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ogre
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races

#1 Post by ogre »

i used to start with gysache, 150% industry 200% research 125% population
i saw somewhere someone recommends trith...
i like egassem too 400/50/75...
but i've been using eaxaw lately, 100/100/100
the primary reason is how massive the early advantage of laser 3 + 3 extra ships
i can piss stomp an entire galaxy without building/waiting for colonies via troop ships even on aggressive,
the only species that seem to be problematic to this design are the stealthy ones
and egassem if you give them time.
i much prefer to start as eaxaw and conquer the industry/research i need.
very convenient and very little waiting.
[0.4.2 official]
thanks for a great game. :)

Starcraft, Syndicate, Populous, Star Control II, Master of Orion, Master of Magic, X-COM UFO Defense, Spacehulk: Vengence of the Blood Angels.

ogre
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Re: races

#2 Post by ogre »

zerg rush is too easy, stealth or armed races exempted.

i really find myself using only eaxaw and gysache.
maybe they're overpowered or other races are underpowered?

egassem is nice but 75pop * 400ind = 30000, 75pop * 50res = 3750
whereas
gysache 125pop * 150ind = 18650, 125pop * 200res = 25000.

maybe rushing wouldnt work if i used larger galaxies or had i more self control about not selecting advantages

this is on typical, aggressive AND maniacal
thanks for a great game. :)

Starcraft, Syndicate, Populous, Star Control II, Master of Orion, Master of Magic, X-COM UFO Defense, Spacehulk: Vengence of the Blood Angels.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: races

#3 Post by Geoff the Medio »

ogre wrote:maybe rushing wouldnt work if i used larger galaxies...
Pretty much.

ogre
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Re: races

#4 Post by ogre »

larger galaxies tho are easily vulnerable to a 'research win'.
in my most humble of opinions of course
-> galactic seed
-> difficulty [min ai aggressiveness?]
-> ai sanity [max ai aggressiveness]

if ANYONE has an impossible save game [turn 0] they'd like to share let me know,
maybe we/you could have/include 'STAGED' galaxies as presaved games.
thanks for a great game. :)

Starcraft, Syndicate, Populous, Star Control II, Master of Orion, Master of Magic, X-COM UFO Defense, Spacehulk: Vengence of the Blood Angels.

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Geoff the Medio
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Re: races

#5 Post by Geoff the Medio »

ogre wrote:larger galaxies tho are easily vulnerable to a 'research win'.
Just don't go for research "wins" then. They're a very superficial and unbalanced victory condition at the moment.

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Dilvish
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Re: races

#6 Post by Dilvish »

Just advising a player to avoid the research win doesn't entirely solve the issue as the AIs have a final default research strategy, once they've accomplished everything specifically set for them, to research anything remaining in order of cost, low to high. As a first preliminary adjustment, the cost of the research win could have a dependency added for the size of the galaxy to address that somewhat.

Also, one of these days I think the research win should be adjusted at the very least to be a two stage thing, a preliminary tech which is a pre-req to the final tech, and once an empire has researched the prelim tech, its effect is to generate a sitrep to all empires that the one has unlocked the final leg of the research win. I'd say let that sitrep fire every turn while the researching empire still has any owned planets, but it could be staged with a special so as to only fire once. But that could be used as a cue by the other empires (including AIs) to focus attacks on that empire.

A related idea could be to have the victory prelim tech enable a special research facility building which is required in order to advance the final leg -- an additional Effect of the prelim tech is to monitor if the producing empire owns exactly one of the special research facility, and if not, it resets the producing empire's progress on the final leg by some percentage each turn, or all the way to zero.

These could at least be some interim fixes for the research win.
Last edited by Dilvish on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bigjoe5
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Re: races

#7 Post by Bigjoe5 »

I've said this before, and I have no doubt I'll say it again, but as far as I'm concerned, there should be only one victory condition: sole-survivor. If a part of the game isn't significant enough that a player can earn a sole-survivor victory by focusing on it, it's not significant enough to warrant its own separate victory condition. Separate victory conditions are just a lazy way to avoid integrating a feature into a game's core mechanics.
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eleazar
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Re: races

#8 Post by eleazar »

I agree our research win isn't great, and i also agree that alternate victories often feel tacked on, and arbitrary. And yet i understand why they are there. I (and apparently many other players) find fighting to the point of total domination boring. Else why all these other victory conditions? Once you've reached a point where victory is inevitable, there's no more challenge -- but in a 4X there is often a lot of mopping after that point to actually win. Also Americans (and other westerners?) tend to root for the underdog. It becomes increasingly hard to think of yourself as the good guys as you crush pathetic underdog empires, who haven't been a threat for a while.

I agree with Dilvish that a victory condition is better if it can be physically disrupted, or averted in some other way than simply getting there first. Civ's Alpha Centauri (in some versions) is a good example of this as Ship parts needed to be produced all over your empire and shipped to a central location-- being vulnerable in the meantime.

ogre
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Re: races

#9 Post by ogre »

eleazar wrote:I agree our research win isn't great, and i also agree that alternate victories often feel tacked on, and arbitrary. And yet i understand why they are there. I (and apparently many other players) find fighting to the point of total domination boring. Else why all these other victory conditions? Once you've reached a point where victory is inevitable,
when i say 'research win' i'm not referering to the final tech discovery.
i'm speaking of the species research bonuses and the researched research bonuses.
the only diminishing return here is the literal END of the tech tree.
learning + growth & a little 'defense' here and there put one immensely far ahead of even the most "aggressive" of species
eleazar wrote:I agree with Dilvish that a victory condition is better if it can be physically disrupted, or averted in some other way than simply getting there first. Civ's Alpha Centauri (in some versions) is a good example of this as Ship parts needed to be produced all over your empire and shipped to a central location-- being vulnerable in the meantime.
which is why i enjoy the starlanes immensely.
it's the whole princess and the pea.

anyways now that i have the feel for the game i'm trying to find some difficult galaxy designs
too big = easy to tech up to psycho then it's just splitting up your free fleets to increase fronts and create more :)
too small = zerg rush
ill try a 100 system with 10 at medium planets
thanks for a great game. :)

Starcraft, Syndicate, Populous, Star Control II, Master of Orion, Master of Magic, X-COM UFO Defense, Spacehulk: Vengence of the Blood Angels.

ogre
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Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:38 am
Location: Flint, Wishagain

Re: races

#10 Post by ogre »

Dilvish wrote:Also, one of these days I think the research win should be adjusted at the very least to be a two stage thing, a preliminary tech which is a pre-req to the final tech, and once an empire has researched the prelim tech, its effect is to generate a sitrep to all empires that the one has unlocked the final leg of the research win. I'd say let that sitrep fire every turn while the researching empire still has any owned planets, but it could be staged with a special so as to only fire once. But that could be used as a cue by the other empires (including AIs) to focus attacks on that empire.

A related idea could be to have the victory prelim tech enable a special research facility building which is required in order to advance the final leg -- an additional Effect of the prelim tech is to monitor if the producing empire owns exactly one of the special research facility, and if not, it resets the producing empire's progress on the final leg by some percentage each turn, or all the way to zero.

These could at least be some interim fixes for the research win.
i like that ALOT


anyways back to my first post here
egassem @ 75% population with 400% industry roughly equals 300% industry @ 100% population
gysache @ 125% pop + 200% res = 250% res & 125% + 150% ind = 187% industry
as per my grumble concerning the eaxaw being 100% all around, their extra ships and laser three is a huge headstart in the begining and is only [currently 0.4.2f] unbalanced in the face of the /plain/ humans.

conquering planets early with troop ships creates a huge lead in industry/research [zerg rush]
thanks for a great game. :)

Starcraft, Syndicate, Populous, Star Control II, Master of Orion, Master of Magic, X-COM UFO Defense, Spacehulk: Vengence of the Blood Angels.

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